65 Midyear, what to look for???

[c4c5specialist]

Hi there,
I have mostly dealt with non matching number 327 engines that we modified.
This is a 396, 4 speed.
It will be coming into the shop tomorrow.
Any TECH tips?????:confused
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[BarryK]

Hi there,
I have mostly dealt with non matching number 327 engines that we modified.
This is a 396, 4 speed.
It will be coming into the shop tomorrow.
Any TECH tips?????:confused
Allthebest, c4c5

what kind of info are you looking for?
are you trying to evaluate the car for purchase or are you working on it for a customer?
what kind of tips are you trying to get a handle on?

 

[BarryK]

BTW
unless you made a typo, you posted this in the C3 section but you're asking about a '65 396 C2.
you may get a better response in the C2 forum

 

[c4c5specialist]

Yeah, Rare81.Bud, will never let me live that one down.
But seriously, the customer is a new one, and just wanted me to go over the car and evaluate it.
Anyway, I know some functional stuff and I know if they are matching numbers they are worth a good dollar. But also I do NOT want to steer him in the wrong direction.
How to confirm matching numbers would be one???
Is the 65. 396 a rare find? and if so, what type of number would I look for and where???
Thank you for all the help, c4c5NO COMPUTERS< what do I do???????????

 

[61 Silver]

1965 396ci

The 396 is a rare car and will bring a good price if original. If I were to buy a 396CI I would confirm that it was a matching number car and not a re-stamp block, even if I had to pay an expert. Paper work and provenance is very important with this type of car. I am not sure of the exact date that GM started producing the 396CI but I believe it was after January 1965 and this provided for a very short production run. The Corvette Black Book list only 2,157 car produced with the 396CI option. I am sure John Z will reply to this posting, he has great knowledge of GM production. I would also check for the normal problem areas such as frame kick up and door post rust.

 

[vettefinderjim]

rear half shaft and sway bar

1.- 3/8" fuel line is placed on top of the frame in a different position from the small block

2.- half shafts are connected to the end plate in the diff with grade 8 bolts over a U shaped plate, not the usual U clamps

3.- all 396 cars with the above suspension HD mods had a rear sway bar from the factory.

There are many other minor differences.........but this is one big one that rarely gets changed when a small block is replaced with a big block.

 

[vettefinderjim]

vin # 13000 and later

The first 396 made was at approx vin # 13000 and later. 61 silver is correct. Take you time and studay all. The carb for instance should be #R3124A,#3868826 Holly. They are over $1000 now to replace.

 

[c4c5specialist]

THANK YOU, very much.
I will grab the VIN and pics if I can.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[BarryK]

here is some basic info to look for on a '65 396 BB car:

casting # for all 396 motors is 3855962
check area above oil filter for an external oil cooler which is indicated by a single square plug
check for presence of two reinforcement gussets located above the timing chain cover at approx 11:00 and 1:00 o'clock
should have a 8" harmonic balancer
Cylinder cases with casting dates beginning with A, B, C, or D will typically have 'PASS' embossed on the right bellhousing mounting flange.
Cylinder cases with casting dates of E or later are embossed with "HI PERF"

Assembly stamping:
ID charactacters and digits are 3/16" in height
date and suffix ident code is located on the putboard side of the engine pad
all engines are assembled at the Tonawanda plant
code format is TMMDDXX - where T is for Tonawanda, followed by two digits for the month (01 thru 12), two digita for the date of the month (01 thru 31), followed by two suffux letters representing the engine code which should be IF.
Original cars have been observed with the "F" in the IF suffix being slightly out-of-line.
EX: T0315IF would be a 396 made at Tonawanda on March 15th.

Cylinderheads are cast iron painted engine color and are identified by 1/4" tapped holes located between each exhaust port. Casting number of the heads is 3856208 but it can't be seen installed.

Carb and intake:
motor uses a Holley model 4150 carb
intake is aluminum and has a casting # 3866963

NO oil fill tube is correct on 396 BB cars - oil is added in the right valve cover

BB accelerator levers curve upwards on the end and resemble a "C"

fuel pump should be part #6440248 on early 396 cars and # 6440366 on later 396 production cars. Both models should have AC embossed on them to be correct

BB cars had a 90 degree bend in the fuel line at the fuel pump end about 6" forward of the center of the idler arm

exhaust manifolds:
original manifolds have a raised round plateau on the outside face of the manifold. The left hand mani has two raised plateaus and the right sidehas one. The raised plateau has a raised "tit" in the middle of the plateau and is unique to '65 manifolds - current reproductions manifolds don't have it
cast # Left side : 3856301
cast # right side: 3856302

drive shaft and half shaft:
BB cars use a shot peened haft shaft and yoke assembly. Attachment to the differential is via a steel cap secured with hex-head bolts

Rear stabilizer bar is 9/16". Original bars are straight in their long axis and not offset like current replacementsor later models

The above is NOT all inclusive by any means but gives you some areas to look at anyway

 

[IH2LOSE]

here is some basic info to look for on a '65 396 BB car:

casting # for all 396 motors is 3855962
check area above oil filter for an external oil cooler which is indicated by a single square plug
check for presence of two reinforcement gussets located above the timing chain cover at approx 11:00 and 1:00 o'clock
should have a 8" harmonic balancer
Cylinder cases with casting dates beginning with A, B, C, or D will typically have 'PASS' embossed on the right bellhousing mounting flange.
Cylinder cases with casting dates of E or later are embossed with "HI PERF"

Assembly stamping:
ID charactacters and digits are 3/16" in height
date and suffix ident code is located on the putboard side of the engine pad
all engines are assembled at the Tonawanda plant
code format is TMMDDXX - where T is for Tonawanda, followed by two digits for the month (01 thru 12), two digita for the date of the month (01 thru 31), followed by two suffux letters representing the engine code which should be IF.
Original cars have been observed with the "F" in the IF suffix being slightly out-of-line.
EX: T0315IF would be a 396 made at Tonawanda on March 15th.

Cylinderheads are cast iron painted engine color and are identified by 1/4" tapped holes located between each exhaust port. Casting number of the heads is 3856208 but it can't be seen installed.

Carb and intake:
motor uses a Holley model 4150 carb
intake is aluminum and has a casting # 3866963

NO oil fill tube is correct on 396 BB cars - oil is added in the right valve cover

BB accelerator levers curve upwards on the end and resemble a "C"

fuel pump should be part #6440248 on early 396 cars and # 6440366 on later 396 production cars. Both models should have AC embossed on them to be correct

BB cars had a 90 degree bend in the fuel line at the fuel pump end about 6" forward of the center of the idler arm

exhaust manifolds:
original manifolds have a raised round plateau on the outside face of the manifold. The left hand mani has two raised plateaus and the right sidehas one. The raised plateau has a raised "tit" in the middle of the plateau and is unique to '65 manifolds - current reproductions manifolds don't have it
cast # Left side : 3856301
cast # right side: 3856302

drive shaft and half shaft:
BB cars use a shot peened haft shaft and yoke assembly. Attachment to the differential is via a steel cap secured with hex-head bolts

Rear stabilizer bar is 9/16". Original bars are straight in their long axis and not offset like current replacementsor later models

The above is NOT all inclusive by any means but gives you some areas to look at anyway

WOW Barry you have been doing some investagative reading.Excellent information being shared here

 

[BarryK]

WOW Barry you have been doing some investagative reading.Excellent information being shared here

yep, I cheated, I went thru my '65 NCRS Tech. manual and tried to pull the most pertinant info out for the BB cars for him.

it's pure plageriasm I know but I figure if he could use the info than so be it.

I figure it's give a little get as little and on this forum for for i've gotten a LOT but only been able to give very little so i'm glad to help him if I can.
Besides, I may need his expertise on C4's if we get the second Vette for my wife in the spring!

 

[vettefinderjim]

Must have Transistor Ignition !

Barry, you said it perfectly and covered 99%. It took most of us old geezers 20 years to discover what you shared.

One other item, All 396 cars had K66 Transistor Ignition System Evidence of the power amphflier in the forward L/F bulkhead adjacent to the L/F horn should be present. Even if removed, the mounting holes should be there. The distributor number is 1111093 and that should be present on the little aluminum 1/2" band on the base of the distributor.

 

[c4c5specialist]

Well, I was totally blind sided by this one.

Not a big block, 327/300 horse with a powerglide. Convertible, teak wheel, hubcaps, and power antenna.
Not a bad car, at all. Very clean.
Had a few leaks from the oil filter housing, valve covers and the rear main seal.
Transmission was leaking from the output shaft, speedo drive gear, and the pan.
However, I have a question, the block is stamped with the last digits of the VIN but I do not know if it was a restamp, how do I tell?????
As far as the rest, needs shocks and tires, but the ignition and carb are both working very well.
Other than that, paint had been redone and was starting to show the repair marks.
The owners says he wants to drive it at least once a week.
I think that is very cool.
If anyone has anything else to look for, please let me know.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[BarryK]

Well, I was totally blind sided by this one.

Not a big block, 327/300 horse with a powerglide.

However, I have a question, the block is stamped with the last digits of the VIN but I do not know if it was a restamp, how do I tell?????

If anyone has anything else to look for, please let me know.
Allthebest, c4c5

gee, all that typing I did with two fingers for nothing!
LOL

the digits on the stamppad should be 5/32" in height. As for it being a restamp or not really only someone who is really used to judging these cars would really be able to tell. If you posted a pic someone like JohnZ could probably tell you if it was a restamp or if it looked real. As i understand it, many of the NCRS judges hace actually accumulated "libraries" of digits from stamppads of different years from known and documented cars they can use as a reference since a lot of the various digits have a uniqueness to them. For example, a "3" digit was probably used more often than a "9" therefore the stamp for the "3" would get more worn and that would show up as being more faint or stampped in to a somewhat lesser depth than some other digits. also, others digits thru the years may be know to have a slight tilt to them etc. Knowledgable judges and experts know what to look for in these areas.
Having said that, in MY opinion which is typically more wrong than right :L
I would think the chances of a 300hp car being a restamp is fairly small. The small block cars only have so much value, even including a fuelie car and it's not really worth going to the trouble to try to restamp or as I think of it "fake up" a car especially as only a 300hp. If you are going to do that, why not at least restamp a L-79 or L-76 350hp or 365hp car and try to get a few more $'s out of it during a resale?
Others may disagree with me, but if everything else on the car looks correct and all other numbers match and it's "only" a 300hp car i'd take it at face value as being a true #'s matching car.
for all you 327/300hp owners out there, I meant NO disrespect to your cars and motors at all! I know the 300hp is a really good motor. My main point is that I feel that because of the value in the market today, I think you will probably find that most restamps are on the big block cars because that's where the resale prices are getting very high.

 

[bossvette]

sounds like a nice driver, steer him over to CAC, at first I thought you were buying one for yourself Paul. While not "worth" as much an unmolested car is still more valuable and harder to find then most.

 

[vettefinderjim]

Broach Marks

Well. Surprise, surprise. We had a good lesson on 396 Corvettes however.

You ask about engine stamps. The real knowledge comes from looking at many engines........and NCRS Judging. Stamps were put on all Chevrolet engines for many years. The vin derritive did not start for Corvette until 1960. The federal law mandated in 1968 that all engines be stamped with a vin number.

The 'broach' marks are the item that ususally gives away a re-stamp. The original 'broach' machine used to deck and surface an original motor was huge in size and scraped the metal straigt from end to end. So the fine surface of a block should be 'broached' with fine lines front to rear and not at an angle. When a re-builder.'decks' a block, the factory numbers are usually ground off, then a restorer 're-stamps' the numbers he wants back into a block. Fraud? If he is changing the originality of the engine horsepower , YES!

Does this happen in our hobby for value gain? You bet, and it has been going on for years. This is a whole new subject.........so here is a picture of a 340hp engine from a 63 original car. It will give you a good idea what a 'real' stamp looks like from Chevrolet.

 

[BarryK]

When a re-builder.'decks' a block, the factory numbers are usually ground off, then a restorer 're-stamps' the numbers he wants back into a block. Fraud? If he is changing the originality of the engine horsepower , YES!

Does this happen in our hobby for value gain? You bet, and it has been going on for years.

many people may disagree with me but in my OPINION changing any numbers on the block or stamp pad is "faking" the motor and could be called fraud.
I realize even NCRS allows "restored" blocks meaning a non-original black of the same type and proper casting date could be used and restamped with the proper VIN #, but to me that this still fraud because 99.9% of the people out there doing it will now try to pass that car off as a fully original numbers matching car. It's my opinion that a rue #'s matching car not only has the correct numbers on the block but it's also the ORIGINAL block in the car.
I've learned it's more important to ask if the motor is the original motor, not just is it a numbers matching motor.

Opinions on this issue vary greatly but one example is c5vetter's '63 SWC Z-06 LADY. Rick missed out on a Top Flight award on LADY simply because the block didn't have the correct VIN number on it. NCRS allows him to have the block restamped which he could have done and he would have had enough points to recieve the Top Flight on the car but Rick's opinion is the same as mine in this aspect. The original block is long gone and so it is not a true numbers matching original car no matter what he could have had stamped on the motor. He did the best he felt comfortable doing which was using a correct block of proper casting dates for the production date of his car but not restamp the stamp pad to "match" the car's VIN. He choose to forfeit the points in judging for the sake of integrity which I applaud. The unfortunate thing is you can be sure that many of the other cars there that did recieve Top Flight awards did it with restamped motors that are not original blocks to the cars.

 

[vettefinderjim]

I love ORIGINAL Corvettes

Matching numbers is the most confused term out there. 38-24-36 is matching numbers !

"ORIGINAL Driveline", or "RESTORATION Driveline" should be the terms used in describing engines in the motorsports hobby today.

A Restoration Driveline done correctly however, really is no different that a repaint. I applaud Rick and his Z-06. I also applaud people like Kevin Mackay at Corvette Repair who with dedication to originality, will 'restore' to a very high level of correct originality.

The very popular 'SURVIVOR' cars are where all the collector action is. The is no substitute for a real , low mile 100% ORIGINAL unrestored vehicles. But now we are talking investment return, and not DRIVING and having fun. There is a happy medium where both driving and investing can be realized.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I couldn't agree more and I applaud Rick for not restamping that 1963 Z06 even though it cost him the big prize. To me a restamped block just doesn't feel right.

Tom

 

[geopar]

One more distinction for the 396 cars: The battery is mounted on the left hand side(as were the air cars), with a removable inner fender panel for access.