Antz81
Well-known member
I think this record's broken. Does anyone want to change it?
Are Headers REALLY Worth It?
- Thread starter toobroketoretire
- Start date
I think this record's broken. Does anyone want to change it?
Vettehead Mikey
Well-known member
Would you like another dose of under inflated tires instead? :ugh
kpic
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That is a keeper!
Run them tires until they separate..
dougelam
Well-known member
Yes, let's all take our mufflers off and when we get a ticket send it to toobroke to pay
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kpic
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They work just fine closed also. The dyno tests I posted were with the headers closed. Did you notice the difference? That is how they noticed metallic high flow CATs make the same power as no CATs.
Yes, we know, the dyno tests are fake, the SAE papers are fake and even Gordon P Blair is fake. According to you, they are all fakes and liars except for you, huh.
It seems to be stuck on all the wrong stuff.
- Thread starter
- #86
toobroketoretire
Banned
Headers are real popular in America because people have been convinced they PRODUCE power when in fact they don't produce anything. They are just steel tubing exhaust manifolds with a fancy name and even fancier price. They will allow a gain in power at the extreme upper rpm level under full power.....................but only when they're open and bypassing the restrictions of the mufflers.
People have been using cut outs lately so their headers can be beneficial but the cut outs are very illegal.
People have been using cut outs lately so their headers can be beneficial but the cut outs are very illegal.
kpic
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Yes, we know Gordon P Blair lies, engineering schools lie, the SAE lies, the dynos lie and everyone lies. For the truth in engineering ask toobroketoretire.
No headers and under inflated tires are the path to real performance, huh.
- Thread starter
- #89
toobroketoretire
Banned
How many of our new cars and trucks come equipped with long tube headers? None you say? Now why do you suppose they would pass up free horsepower during this latest horsepower war? The factory engineers just aren't as smart as you guys? Corked headers produce just as much horsepower as chrome plated gas caps or fuzzy dice hanging from a rear view mirror.
dougelam
Well-known member
Narrow minded as usual
The manufacturer has hundreds of regulations to follow and NOT EVERYONE is after max horsepower!
The factory engineers are smart enough to set the stage for us to add long tube headers or whatever to make it ours the way we want it.
PS; was there ever an RPO code for climate controlled ignition?
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kpic
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Hint, I was a factory design type for over 45 years.
Absolutely none which were cost and emissions based decisions; not a performance based decision. Yet, these same factory engineers put larger carburetors on engines than you say. Go figure, huh...
Although cast iron has gone well beyond the nickel a pound it was in 1970 when I got into the business. It is still a lot cheaper than equal length tubing, flanges and all the fixture welding required to build a set of headers. Plus steel tubing, stainless if one wants some life. metallic 100 or 200 cell CATs etc, cost a lot more than the OTC stuff most new vehicles come with..
It is a lot less expensive to add a boss to cast iron then CNC drill and tap it than to weld bungs to headers for the O2 sensors.
The point is, it isn't free horsepower; it is very expensive horsepower at the factory levels. There is a phrase in industry, it is value added. As obviously you've never worked in industry, you are quite clueless as to what it means.
You claim to be a mechanical design engineer; yet all you show is a remarkable ignorance of automotive design engineering. I'm trying to be polite and you still don't get it. However, you keep on talking. So far you've had design engineers, master techs, a technical writer, and shade tree mechanics all call you out. You've called dyno shops liars and ignored tire manufacturers about inflation and still keep yapping on and on.
Might I ask what college did you attend for your self-acclaimed degree in engineering?
- Thread starter
- #92
toobroketoretire
Banned
Another Horsepower War
The American automobile manufacturers were engaged in a horsepower war back in the 1960's and then things went flat until the last several years when a new horsepower war has started. We now have 500 hp "grocery getter" SUV's, 550 hp Mustangs, 638 hp Corvettes, and 707 hp Dodge SRT Hellcats and we still don't see headers on these brutes. How on earth can they produce such enormous amounts of power without headers? In my opinion headers would be used on every engine in the world if they were in any way beneficial to adding power or fuel economy. Headers do produce some power gains but only when they're run at wide open throttle, high rpm, and OPEN and it's against the law to run open headers on street vehicles. Considering the never ending hassle of blown header gaskets, increased engine bay heat, fried starter solenoids, and burned hoses and plastic components, I would never waste my money on headers. They may look really cool and "racy" but that's all they do.
The American automobile manufacturers were engaged in a horsepower war back in the 1960's and then things went flat until the last several years when a new horsepower war has started. We now have 500 hp "grocery getter" SUV's, 550 hp Mustangs, 638 hp Corvettes, and 707 hp Dodge SRT Hellcats and we still don't see headers on these brutes. How on earth can they produce such enormous amounts of power without headers? In my opinion headers would be used on every engine in the world if they were in any way beneficial to adding power or fuel economy. Headers do produce some power gains but only when they're run at wide open throttle, high rpm, and OPEN and it's against the law to run open headers on street vehicles. Considering the never ending hassle of blown header gaskets, increased engine bay heat, fried starter solenoids, and burned hoses and plastic components, I would never waste my money on headers. They may look really cool and "racy" but that's all they do.
- Moderator
- #94
bill81vette
Moderator
Once again TBTR ignored the question!
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- Thread starter
- #95
toobroketoretire
Banned
So What's Next Wannabe Racers?
If wannabe racers are going to put ineffective headers on their street engines to make them look "racy" what's next for their street driven cars? Wheelie bars? A drag chute? Wrinkle wall slicks? A fake supercharger scoop glued to their hood? Wear a helmet and fire suit while driving? Paint AA/FX on their doors? Paint fake "sponsor" names all over their cars? Install smoke generators in the rear wheel wells to make it look like they're doing burnouts every time they accelerate? Install LOUD external sound systems making funny car engine sounds?
I recommend they install parts that really add performance instead of just looking like they add performance.
If wannabe racers are going to put ineffective headers on their street engines to make them look "racy" what's next for their street driven cars? Wheelie bars? A drag chute? Wrinkle wall slicks? A fake supercharger scoop glued to their hood? Wear a helmet and fire suit while driving? Paint AA/FX on their doors? Paint fake "sponsor" names all over their cars? Install smoke generators in the rear wheel wells to make it look like they're doing burnouts every time they accelerate? Install LOUD external sound systems making funny car engine sounds?
I recommend they install parts that really add performance instead of just looking like they add performance.
dougelam
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #97
toobroketoretire
Banned
Performance Parts Catalogs
Take a look in the Performance Parts Catalogs of G.M., Ford, and Mopar and you'll quickly notice NO headers are shown. Are the world's automobile manufacturers just not aware of the HUGE power gains headers would give their engines? Well, as a mechanical engineer I know why but if I explained it to you in detail you still wouldn't believe me after being subjected to 50+ years of misleading and deceptive advertising.
Exhaust headers are known as "special purpose" performance parts as they are only effective when operated under all three of these conditions:
1. Full throttle
2. High rpm
3. Must be run OPEN (no exhaust system attached).
When used on a street engine headers are nothing more than high-priced tubular steel exhaust manifolds. Every dyno test you read about or see on You Tube is the same as it's never manifolds off/headers on. Instead it's always manifolds off/headers on and with extensive exhaust system modifications to allow the headers to produce more power.
So are headers REALLY worth it? In the looks department they rate 100% but in the actual performance department they rate a 0%.
Take a look in the Performance Parts Catalogs of G.M., Ford, and Mopar and you'll quickly notice NO headers are shown. Are the world's automobile manufacturers just not aware of the HUGE power gains headers would give their engines? Well, as a mechanical engineer I know why but if I explained it to you in detail you still wouldn't believe me after being subjected to 50+ years of misleading and deceptive advertising.
Exhaust headers are known as "special purpose" performance parts as they are only effective when operated under all three of these conditions:
1. Full throttle
2. High rpm
3. Must be run OPEN (no exhaust system attached).
When used on a street engine headers are nothing more than high-priced tubular steel exhaust manifolds. Every dyno test you read about or see on You Tube is the same as it's never manifolds off/headers on. Instead it's always manifolds off/headers on and with extensive exhaust system modifications to allow the headers to produce more power.
So are headers REALLY worth it? In the looks department they rate 100% but in the actual performance department they rate a 0%.
RedHot85Vette
Well-known member
Silly
The answer is: technology.
I'm almost surprised that this debate is still going on, and on. Not to be insulting, but my initial response was to laugh and smile. I thought and said in my head, "That's just silly". I would hope that the technology of today... approximately 50 years after our hippy/muscle car era... would eliminate the need for headers on any of the "brutes" built today. I believe the comparison is invalid. Today's cars are designed on supercomputers, cars of yesteryear were designed with #2 pencils and Etch-a-Sketch. Today's cars are intensely, and intricately controlled using their own supercomputers, along with a large collection of sensors and switches so much so that an engine can have some of it's cylinders turned on or off given the type of driving conditions, and that's just a small example of what today's automobile engines can do compared to muscle cars of the old days. I had an old Pontiac Trans Am that I bought from a junk yard for $500, with not the original engine, but ran great after a little repair work, but it only had a PCV valve for emissions, certainly no computer controls, and just a handful of relays for switches, AND Headers. I believe if I switched back the original exhaust manifolds, "flow" would be reduced, and horsepower lost. That aside, Again, I believe the above quoted to be invalid. You might as well be comparing space shuttles to paper air planes.
Doesn't "anybody" read books, magazines, tech articles, or watch Automotive based TV Shows, maybe have listened to some radio broadcasts, gone to the library to get media on automotive engine modifications... spent some time at YouTube... or searching, researching with Google... and on and on... and has "anybody" after seeing various test results from Billions (no exageration, since we're talking about 50 Years worth of data) of test results, been enlightened, educated about the performance use of headers, whether or not they'd be beneficial, as per the use intended. They might not work so well on some cars, but make a drastic improvement on others. After over 50 Years of Testing, and Billions of Test Result Data, for the average hot rodder, building or modifying a qualified hot rodder engine, there is generally a benefit. In fact, I'd like to see data that shows where headers were not a horsepower improvement, weighed against the data that shows they were. Stack up the documentation, weigh it, measure it... what do you think the results will be? Which stack will be the biggest/heaviest?
If I am on a mission to increase the horsepower of my 1985 Chevrolet Corvette stock as it left the dealership, SBC TPI engine, will installing a set of headers help me to accomplish my goal? There are Only 2 Answers: Yes or No. No explanations. Just Yes or No. My Only Goal is to accomplish my mission, by at least One Horse or above. I don't need a lesson in automobile engine mechanics. Just Yes or No... Only. Just a One Word Reply. Thank You in Advance.
What if my question was sent to "everyone" professional and otherwise, with knowledge of performance engine crafting in mind, including but not limited to Government agencies that test these sort of things, automobile manufacturers and engineers that work for them, Universities, High Schools, TV shows, YouTuber's, Magazines, Periodicals of all types related to the automotive industry, manufacturers of auto engine performance items not just engine parts, exhaust system specialists, I mean "everyone". What answer would I get?
It's easy to get people all in a fuss about certain subjects (politics, religion, automobile engine performance) and get an endless debate started, and keep it on going. Even when it's plainly apparent what the truth really is. The good news is that while the fun unfolds, there's tons of great useful technical knowledge to be found within the battles.
John
The answer is: technology.
I'm almost surprised that this debate is still going on, and on. Not to be insulting, but my initial response was to laugh and smile. I thought and said in my head, "That's just silly". I would hope that the technology of today... approximately 50 years after our hippy/muscle car era... would eliminate the need for headers on any of the "brutes" built today. I believe the comparison is invalid. Today's cars are designed on supercomputers, cars of yesteryear were designed with #2 pencils and Etch-a-Sketch. Today's cars are intensely, and intricately controlled using their own supercomputers, along with a large collection of sensors and switches so much so that an engine can have some of it's cylinders turned on or off given the type of driving conditions, and that's just a small example of what today's automobile engines can do compared to muscle cars of the old days. I had an old Pontiac Trans Am that I bought from a junk yard for $500, with not the original engine, but ran great after a little repair work, but it only had a PCV valve for emissions, certainly no computer controls, and just a handful of relays for switches, AND Headers. I believe if I switched back the original exhaust manifolds, "flow" would be reduced, and horsepower lost. That aside, Again, I believe the above quoted to be invalid. You might as well be comparing space shuttles to paper air planes.
Doesn't "anybody" read books, magazines, tech articles, or watch Automotive based TV Shows, maybe have listened to some radio broadcasts, gone to the library to get media on automotive engine modifications... spent some time at YouTube... or searching, researching with Google... and on and on... and has "anybody" after seeing various test results from Billions (no exageration, since we're talking about 50 Years worth of data) of test results, been enlightened, educated about the performance use of headers, whether or not they'd be beneficial, as per the use intended. They might not work so well on some cars, but make a drastic improvement on others. After over 50 Years of Testing, and Billions of Test Result Data, for the average hot rodder, building or modifying a qualified hot rodder engine, there is generally a benefit. In fact, I'd like to see data that shows where headers were not a horsepower improvement, weighed against the data that shows they were. Stack up the documentation, weigh it, measure it... what do you think the results will be? Which stack will be the biggest/heaviest?
If I am on a mission to increase the horsepower of my 1985 Chevrolet Corvette stock as it left the dealership, SBC TPI engine, will installing a set of headers help me to accomplish my goal? There are Only 2 Answers: Yes or No. No explanations. Just Yes or No. My Only Goal is to accomplish my mission, by at least One Horse or above. I don't need a lesson in automobile engine mechanics. Just Yes or No... Only. Just a One Word Reply. Thank You in Advance.
What if my question was sent to "everyone" professional and otherwise, with knowledge of performance engine crafting in mind, including but not limited to Government agencies that test these sort of things, automobile manufacturers and engineers that work for them, Universities, High Schools, TV shows, YouTuber's, Magazines, Periodicals of all types related to the automotive industry, manufacturers of auto engine performance items not just engine parts, exhaust system specialists, I mean "everyone". What answer would I get?
It's easy to get people all in a fuss about certain subjects (politics, religion, automobile engine performance) and get an endless debate started, and keep it on going. Even when it's plainly apparent what the truth really is. The good news is that while the fun unfolds, there's tons of great useful technical knowledge to be found within the battles.
John
Antz81
Well-known member
I thought it was common knowledge that a coffee can to open your choke earlier since you can't be bothered (or don't know how) to fix it properly adds around 25hp to any engine.
- Thread starter
- #100
toobroketoretire
Banned
It's All In Your Mind
Headers are known as "perceived" power. If they appear beneficial then they MUST be beneficial, right? Kinda like a fake hood scoop or racing stripes.
Headers are known as "perceived" power. If they appear beneficial then they MUST be beneficial, right? Kinda like a fake hood scoop or racing stripes.
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