Argument for a cheaper Vette?

[veteluvr74]

What I am about to go into here will never happen but it is just something I was thinking about the other day when I was trying to justify either buying a new vette or a pre-owned one.

I personally think GM is screwing themselves by way overpricing the Corvette. When the C5 first came on the scene in '97, it was starting around 37K. As it moved on, it quickly grew in price as well as somewhat of a performance gain where it is now being priced with options in the +50K area. This is still not a bad price compared to what its competition is.

However, was this huge jump in price compatible with the performance gain? I would argue no, unless you were opting for the Z06.

I was looking at the discounts that are being tossed around to clear out the inventorys of some of the larger dealerships. $9000 off MSRP. So if you are buying a 2003 vert decently optioned at 55K, you would be paying around 46K for the car. Even with chopping $9000 off the price, the dealship and GM are still making money on this car.

I think GM would have been smarter and would have sold more vettes had they kept the price maxed out around 45K. Now that the C6 is coming out it is clear that they are going to top the 60K mark. I know this is a rich mans car and always has been, but it dosent mean it has to be.

I am 28 yrs old and a corvette enthusiast. I make a decent living making over 50K a year. The only thing I can afford is to go out and find a decent pre-owned one. I think GM is excluding a huge audience by pricing the vette so high. They could open themselves to younger crowd, late 20's early 30's by not making the price of the vette so high and still be able to make money off of it. We know they can do it just by the types of discounts that are being offered..

Look at the Japanese import market. They are making cars in the mid 20K range with tremendous performance figures. The WRX from Suburu is close to 300 HP for a factory rice burner. Granted these cars do not have the technology that the vette has but these are the cars that are attractive to the younger generations. When I was 18, I used to look in awe as I would watch a corvette go by and wonder when the day would come that I would a vette of my own.

I fear that the scene from 2 Fast 2 Furious where the mustang and the vette crash are symbol as to what is happening to good old American muscle. I am just afraid at the pace at which GM is headed with the vette, nobody will be able to afford it, even the rich man.

Hope this makes sence.

 

[LongTimer]

I'm sure you're right that there would be more demand for the C5 if it sold for $46k. However, the marketing of a car - a somewhat limited production car like vette - is a balancing act. How can the manufacturer maximize the return on his investment while fulfilling targeted demographic requirements? The answer that GM has chosen is to produce a certain quantity of vettes per year that enables them to maintain targeted quality and not over-stress the plants' resources. To attain today's profit per car at a full production year sale price of $46k, might require the production of more cars than the plant could produce. Don't forget that real life requires substantial year end discounts from what ever your established price.

Sorry if I've rambled too much, but it all boils down to Supply and Demand. The price of the product will be adjusted (increased here) until demand (you and me) is adjusted (falls here) to a point that is acceptable to those supplying the product (GM).

 

[veteluvr74]

I totally agree, however, do you think that its getting to the point where they could be shrinking their intended market? 10 years from now we could be looking at an 80K sports car. At that point the market would be so small only a select few would be able to purchase a new one.

 

[Grizzly]

Cheaper Vette

Not only will it never happen, it will get worse with that ugly Caddy version tying up the production lines. The total number of Corvettes that can be produced will be reduced by the number of Caddys. What that means is the people that really want Vettes will have to pay more because the supply will be reduced.

My real fear is that the Caddy "Standard of the World" mentality will take over top management at GM and Covette will become a second class product because all the newest and the best will be put on the Caddy first and the stepchild Corvette will receive the hand-me-downs a year or two later.

Keep your fingers crossed Caddy flops again with a two seater.

Just remember there will always be Sting Rays!

 

[LongTimer]

I totally agree, however, do you think that its getting to the point where they could be shrinking their intended market? 10 years from now we could be looking at an 80K sports car. At that point the market would be so small only a select few would be able to purchase a new one.

Remember that there is a quantity / profit per car mix that must be maintained. If you take my prior comments to extreme, BG could be producing 7,000 vettes a year @ 80k (mmm that sounds familiar), but the BG overhead would not be met at that volume, it might take 2-3 times the 80k to cover plant overhead.

Also remember that supply and demand works both ways as we see at each year end - demand drops and inorder to maintain consistant supply (factory efficiency) prices fall (rebates etc).

 

[veteluvr74]

If you take my prior comments to extreme, BG could be producing 7,000 vettes a year @ 80k

Lets assume your proposal. Do you think GM could sell 7000 vettes a year a 80K?

I guess my point is, at what point does it reach a price ceiling at which the consumer says enough is enough? For the vette enthusiasts, if we had the money to pay the 80'gs we would. But forget about introducing the vette to an new audience. It will turn out to be like the Lamborghini or the Ferrari. It will be an exotic that you stare at behind ropes at a car show or go crazy over when you see one on the road. I pray that dosent happen.

 

[LongTimer]

Re: Cheaper Vette

Originally posted by Grizzly
Not only will it never happen, it will get worse with that ugly Caddy version tying up the production lines. The total number of Corvettes that can be produced will be reduced by the number of Caddys.

NO, NO, NO. Sorry Grizzly you're way wrong here. GM spent million$$ building a dedicated building and line off to the side of the vette production line at BG. The only time the XLR and vette get within site of each other (as I understand it) is in the up-graded painting facilities (paid for by Cad).

What that means is the people that really want Vettes will have to pay more because the supply will be reduced.

Vette supply should be completely independent of that of XLR.

My real fear is that the Caddy "Standard of the World" mentality will take over top management at GM and Covette will become a second class product because all the newest and the best will be put on the Caddy first and the stepchild Corvette will receive the hand-me-downs a year or two later.

Guess we will find out soon - if the content of the LS2 and LS7 - are not first class as we have been lead to believe, or if they don't reach production at all, your concerns would be well founded. But I think we will see the most sophisticated OHV engines in the world powering the C6.

Keep your fingers crossed Caddy flops again with a two seater.

Still have to disagree. IMO the "spill over" from the caddy will make the vette a nicer place to live. If vette gets the keyless entry / ignition that would be very cool. The HUD improvements will be great too. These are nicy things that no Vette engineering team (concentrating on performance) would normally devote funds to develop. The amortization of the devel costs for the MSRC might not have been supportable by Vette alone. There is great performance potential in this system.

Just remember there will always be Sting Rays!

That, I agree with!

 

[LongTimer]

I guess my point is, at what point does it reach a price ceiling at which the consumer says enough is enough? For the vette enthusiasts, if we had the money to pay the 80'gs we would. But forget about introducing the vette to an new audience. It will turn out to be like the Lamborghini or the Ferrari. It will be an exotic that you stare at behind ropes at a car show or go crazy over when you see one on the road. I pray that dosent happen.

BG is already producing an 80K car - the XLR. Part of what makes a corvette is value - performance per $. Customers at the 80k level don't care as much about performance per $. They are more emotional in their purchases and the vette would have a hard time breaking into that market. Few would pay 80k and wait in line behind Cavaliers for required maintenance.

So why is the current vette price where it is? Look at the marketplace competition. The C5 had only the Boxter and the SLK in the same price range. How could GM justify selling the vette - a much better car than both, at a significantly lower price? The Viper only made the C5 look like a screaming value. Enter the Japanese - again. Like the last time they took on the vette (C4 years) we could see some interesting one-upsmanship very soon.

 

[Edmond]

I honestly don't have any intention (probably never) of buying a new Corvette. I like the styling of the C3's and C4's. If I want to make it go faster, they sell plenty of performance parts. It'll be a cold day in #%$! that I pay anything close to $50,000 for a car.:L I think I'm actually one of the few people in here that has never even driven a new car; I just can't see myself spending money like that when I could get something for much less that's only a few years old.

 

[Doug Do]

My 1998 C5 was a bargin at $42,000. A new C6 at $48,000 is not so much a bargin, but inflation keeps hitting the pocketbook. I was 50 when I got my first Vette, at 28, you can wait for a new one. Can't have everything all at once you know Now I own a 1967 and it cost twice as much! So, save your pennies and some day it will come.

You may see Ford go belly up ina few years, and GM is bleeding red ink. Things are not good in motor city. Hold out, you may get a car for less next year.

 

[CFour]

They better do something with the price indeed!

 

[Lil' Red]

I would have to say I will never get raped again for new car pricing when I can wait a few years and get a used one after all the kinks and bugs are worked out for less money. Got my 98 2 years ago for 30k so I'll wait until 06-07 to get a C6 if it appeals to me. If not I'll spend the money on the C5 for all the extras that I want. It's a performance car so it will last as long as you take care of it!

 

[hawaii-5-lo]

hey lil'red,
i agree,thats the same approach i used 1 year ago to get my 99,had 26,000 and all the warrenty stuff was worked out.i mod and race my car alot,its slammed also.i have never had 1 problem.as far as 37,000 in 1997,less options,and that was 7 years ago,inflation on parts and labor,just like your salary should(hopefully)gone up since 97 also.the WRX has 300hp,but can you say torque,i eat those cars up at the track.they run mid 14s stock,in my opinion for an all-wheel drive car with a turbo is pathetic.in 1991(maybe 92)g.m. had the all-wheel drive 'cyclone',ran 12.9 on a bad night.plus those WRXs is one ugly car.i think its a great car for the money.later,Todd.

 

[Rob]

In my opinion - I don't agree. I would rather see a few different Corvette models appear at different price ranges than to see the base price of the Corvette drop low for all models.

I've said it here many times last year and I'll continue to say it, I would rather see Corvette move in the direction of Porsche or Ferrari than to see the Corvette become watered down.

Make a few different models of Corvette just like Porsche has the Carrera, the GT3, the Carrera GT etc. (Sorry, I don't know all the Porsche nomenclature off the top of my head). Each of those models comes with different chassis and powertrain combinations as well as differing levels of performance and price for the consumer. EACH has different design elements clearly showing the differences between each of the models, but the overal design cannot be mistaken for anything else but Porsche.

IMHO, Corvette needs to do this. I would like nothing else than to see a Corvette equivalent of the Ferrari Enzo with a few different models below the supercar priced aggressively to match the competition.

In my opinion, in the eyes of the automotive community, the C5 Corvette, up until very recently, has been just a couple steps ahead of the Camaro/Firebird in terms of quality (in some areas such as interior) and performance (obviously exclude the Z06 here). The problem is that there was not enough distinction between the two platforms. Obviously, now that GM killed the F-body platform, this is no longer an issue, however, it further strengthens my point: Corvette needs to be more of a unique platform and part of making it unique is keeping the design and peformance unique above and beyond the other GM platforms and to justify the price with an acceptable level of "uniqueness".

If you're going to sell a Corvette for $50,000 at MSRP, then that $50K Corvette should contain the same if not better quality interior than a $40,000 BMW.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened to ZR-1 sales in the 1990s had the ZR-1 been given a more unique exterior/interior to justify the increase in price over the base model. By nature if the consumer purchases a $70,000 car, they want it to look like a $70,000 car; not it's $40,000 sibling.

Give the consumer variety - give them options - give them different price structures based upon models, but don't water it down, or establish one unique price across the board that does not justify the quality being purchased by the consumer. On the other hand, don't drop the price so low across the board that Corvettes become as common on the roads as Mustangs and Camaros are now.

 

[veteluvr74]

Rob,

I like that idea better then mine!!!! Do you think that would happen?

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I like that idea better then mine!!!! Do you think that would happen?

Honestly, I don't know. I guess only time will tell. I know that last year a rumor floated around about the possibility of Corvette becoming it's own brand and dropping the "Chevrolet" nomenclature, but I believe that was just a rumor and not based upon fact.

 

[veteluvr74]

Do you think that the Z06 line could be the start of something like that?

 

[Rob]

Do you think that the Z06 line could be the start of something like that?

In my opinion, yes. It definitely has the potential.

 

[msiska]

Honestly, I don't know. I guess only time will tell. I know that last year a rumor floated around about the possibility of Corvette becoming it's own brand and dropping the "Chevrolet" nomenclature, but I believe that was just a rumor and not based upon fact.

Rumors...don't we luv 'em!! Do we really think chevy would give up it's flagship model? Don't you believe it!!

 

[Grizzly]

A Better Vette

I think the real improvement in a new Vette would be as Rob says to have different models for different purposes. I once said to my wife that I'm not going to buy another car that I can't buy a headlight for at Walmart. Not a bulb but a headlight. Modern cars are entirely too complex for my tastes and I suspect a large segment of the population.

I would like to see a "stripped" Vette available. Just keep the things you need to have it perform as it should with a few comfort items. I look under the hood of a C5 and then my Sting Ray and wonder what could I take out that would still allow the performance level I require? How come some of the things that they really crow about, traction control, active handling systems, you can actually turn off?

I want a drivers car that I can maintain. I don't need ABS( I know what brakes are for), Bose sound system (aftermarket systems are better if you need to listen to some thing besides the engine and the pipes), electronic climate control (a lever operated AC will do just fine), traction control (a Detroit Locker does just fine), and so on. Porsche actually did this some years back with their club racer. I think it failed for the reasons similar Rob sited, it looked like every other Porsche and the guys that paid $5K more didn't like it.

I understand the some of the people who buy new Corvettes want or more importantly from the GM's liability standpoint need the car to look out for them.

I am now 56 years old, raised on a farm where I learned the rudiments of mechanics and have fooled with wheeled (tracked) vehicles all my life. Boys and Girls we can't fix these things without some very sophisticated equipment. You can't see a burned out circuit board like burned points. You can add cars to the throw away society.

In some ways the first rough and tumble Vipers were really the right concept. But as each year goes on they become more "civilized", read complicated.

There will always be Sting Rays........................