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C6 Naked and Exposed - The Sequel: Finally...We Drive It!!!

Rob

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Hib, Thank you so very much for your eagerly waited review.
 
Wow ! What a great , indepth article . Thanks Hib . And Rob too of course ! Cliff
 
Hib, thanks for the terrific review!!! What are your personal thoughts about the way the car drives compared to your Z?
:beer
 
Wow, that was a great article. I think we've got something pretty good going on here at the CAC to have such indept articles. :beer
 
hojo38 said:
Hib, thanks for the terrific review!!! What are your personal thoughts about the way the car drives compared to your Z?
:beer

Great question, hojo 38.
In normal round-town driving with a manual, the C6's better low-end torque becomes obvious. I wouldn't say it makes the C6 hugely better but it does make the car easier and more fun to drive. I'd also say that round-town, the ride is better. I like the improvements in shift quality, too.

In driving the car really hard, because of the Z06's chassis tuning and weight, I think the Z06 has the edge right now in at-limit handing but the 05 Z51 comes very close and it's a little easier to drive at its limit because of the changes GM has made to the chassis.
 
Excellent points there. I think a general misconception that people who are newer to performance cars have is that more HP is the only way to make a car go faster. The sum of the parts have to be considered; it's not always about the raw power.

I see a lot of firearms newbies who just want a bigger caliber because they think it's "better."
 
Also note, there will be more to come in about 1 1/2 weeks. We will also include ride and handling information as well as an interview with Mike Neal and Dave Hill. Stay tuned!!
 
Thanks so much

Rob and Hib--
Thanks so much. Dayum, I am jealous of your drive(s). I'd trade any amount of time in the Boeing (Ho-Hum) for such an op. Plus, one of my best buds lives in Ann Arbor.

I am relying on what you and others say in my decision about a C-6. I've always opted for the performance suspension on my Vettes, but am unsure if I want to get a new Vert, with the MagRide or Z-51, or stick with the Z-06. Again, if Chevy offered a Z06 Convertible, my decision would be 'fini'.

The C-5 Z was IMHO, what that series was supposed to be, at least in my view of Corvettes. But, being older, and given your (I think) comment that the Mag was great and fairly close to the handling capabilities of the Z-51, I might bow to my golden bones. :)

Might I say: MORE- MORE- MORE

I WILL say: TYVM, in my best Elvis.

BTW, at one time, I was headed for the GM Institute, as one GM car (Corvette) was my first love. Maybe I erred in career choice! :w mike
 
Hib, thanks for the additional comments regarding your real world driving experience. With no current plans for track time or autocross, it has been suggested to me that the F55 suspension, with the addition of the larger Z51 stabilizer bars to minimize body roll, might produce the best compromise between the two competiting suspension packages. Your thoughts on this approach would be appreciated.

:beer
 
Oh come on------Tom Peters' trying to say he was influenced by the raptor fighter jet in the design of the C6 has to be one of the biggest B.S. jobs I have seen yet about the styling of the C6. There isn't one styling element of the design of the C6 that you can't trace to some other vehicle, whether it is a previous Corvette, Viper, Impala or Aztek (two other Peters masterpieces) etc. The juxtaposition of pictures of the car with pictures of the jet, and Peters noting the "comparisons", is a new low in much of the discussion about the styling of the C6. I realize that magazines need to cultivate these people like Peters in order to be granted "access", but there are limits.

--Chris Kennedy
 
Chris Kennedy said:
Oh come on------Tom Peters' trying to say he was influenced by the raptor fighter jet in the design of the C6 has to be one of the biggest B.S. jobs I have seen yet about the styling of the C6. There isn't one styling element of the design of the C6 that you can't trace to some other vehicle, whether it is a previous Corvette, Viper, Impala or Aztek (two other Peters masterpieces) etc. The juxtaposition of pictures of the car with pictures of the jet, and Peters noting the "comparisons", is a new low in much of the discussion about the styling of the C6. I realize that magazines need to cultivate these people like Peters in order to be granted "access", but there are limits.

--Chris Kennedy
Chris,

Out of curiosity, were you in the design studio with Peters and the other designers when they were in the drawing/development stage of the design?
 
Rob said:
Chris,

Out of curiosity, were you in the design studio with Peters and the other designers when they were in the drawing/development stage of the design?
Look, I don't want to cause a problem---if you want to believe Tom Peters and GM's marketers that's fine. I don't. Sorry, I have heard this sort of hype too many times from these guys, and the final C6 product seems to confirm the stories I have read (here and elsewhere) over the years: That is, that there were many re-thinks and delays in the C6 styling for reasons other than Tom Peters' struggles to embody the nation's most avante garde fighter jet, and that if Mr. Peters struggled at all, it was a struggle to incorporate certain major Viper-esque styling elements from his boss, Bob Lutz.
 
Chris Kennedy said:
Look, I don't want to cause a problem---if you want to believe Tom Peters and GM's marketers that's fine. I don't. Sorry, I have heard this sort of hype too many times from these guys, and the final C6 product seems to confirm the stories I have read (here and elsewhere) over the years: That is, that there were many re-thinks and delays in the C6 styling for reasons other than Tom Peters' struggles to embody the nation's most avante garde fighter jet, and that if Mr. Peters struggled at all, it was a struggle to incorporate certain major Viper-esque styling elements from his boss, Bob Lutz.
Chris,

I guess my point is, you have some pretty strong criticisms and accusations, so I'm trying to understand what facts you have to back them up with, other than stories you've heard over the years.
 
Rob said:
Chris,

I guess my point is, you have some pretty strong criticisms and accusations, so I'm trying to understand what facts you have to back them up with, other than stories you've heard over the years.
Fair question:

First, many of the "stories" come from forums such as this, auto publications which periodically reported on the development/problems and redesigns on the C6 etc. I am hardly the only person who has followed all the ups and downs of this design, and others have read about or reported the same issues, too, so to that extent I am dependant upon, well, people like you accurately reporting the "facts". Given some time I could certainly put together a specific list of publications and references for you to confirm that the reports of the development of the styling design of the C6 indicate a pretty turbulent history, not one where some one individual held aloft an ideal and strove to transfer that ideal into reality, as Mr. Peters now claims. Do you want me to do this (several publications come to mind as I type this, e.g., Corvette Magazine, which reported styling-redesign delays after Bob Lutz came on board)? It will either show that Mr. Peters' recollection is, at best, faulty, or mine is faulty or based upon reported "facts" that were not true.

Second, I think, also, that the final product sort of belies the raptor fighter jet as the design model. That is purely a judgment call, but, again, I am not alone on this and debates on this Forum have centered on which cars the C6 resembles, not which fighter aircraft. Moreover, in earlier press releases GM was trumpeting the car's styling cues with previous Corvettes, with a dash of something unique---now Mr. Peters is touting fighter jets as the model. This inconsistent internal line is typically GM (not getting their story straight) and doesn't help credibility. Interestingly, I wonder what Mr. Peters took as his model for the Aztek----Godzilla?

However, the easiest and most accurate way to check on who is right and who is wrong is to run a basic "discovery" on GM. In other words, ask to review primary records as to who was assigned to the C6, when, all sketches, designs, responses critiques, changes, internal correspondence etc etc. Perhaps this will be an instance in which GM's public pronouncements are backed-up by their own documents. In other words, do the job that auto writers and publications should be doing to verify what they publish, instead of uncritically repeating the corporate marketing p.r. line. When people have done this in the past GM has routinely lost, and I see absolutely no change in their corporate attitude currently. I do these sorts of discovery requests for a living---why don't you contact GM and see if they will cooperate and provide this material if I put together a list?



--Chris Kennedy
 
Talk about hiacking a thread! Even has an airplane in it.

Any answers to the suspension questions a couple of us asked, before the bickering?
 
WhalePirot said:
Talk about hiacking a thread! Even has an airplane in it.

Any answers to the suspension questions a couple of us asked, before the bickering?
No bickering--If "Rob" wants to talk about it any further he can just contact me separately.

--Chris Kennedy
 
Chris Kennedy said:
Fair question:

First, many of the "stories" come from forums such as this, auto publications which periodically reported on the development/problems and redesigns on the C6 etc. I am hardly the only person who has followed all the ups and downs of this design, and others have read about or reported the same issues, too, so to that extent I am dependant upon, well, people like you accurately reporting the "facts". Given some time I could certainly put together a specific list of publications and references for you to confirm that the reports of the development of the styling design of the C6 indicate a pretty turbulent history, not one where some one individual held aloft an ideal and strove to transfer that ideal into reality, as Mr. Peters now claims. Do you want me to do this (several publications come to mind as I type this, e.g., Corvette Magazine, which reported styling-redesign delays after Bob Lutz came on board)? It will either show that Mr. Peters' recollection is, at best, faulty, or mine is faulty or based upon reported "facts" that were not true.

Second, I think, also, that the final product sort of belies the raptor fighter jet as the design model. That is purely a judgment call, but, again, I am not alone on this and debates on this Forum have centered on which cars the C6 resembles, not which fighter aircraft. Moreover, in earlier press releases GM was trumpeting the car's styling cues with previous Corvettes, with a dash of something unique---now Mr. Peters is touting fighter jets as the model. This inconsistent internal line is typically GM (not getting their story straight) and doesn't help credibility. Interestingly, I wonder what Mr. Peters took as his model for the Aztek----Godzilla?

However, the easiest and most accurate way to check on who is right and who is wrong is to run a basic "discovery" on GM. In other words, ask to review primary records as to who was assigned to the C6, when, all sketches, designs, responses critiques, changes, internal correspondence etc etc. Perhaps this will be an instance in which GM's public pronouncements are backed-up by their own documents. In other words, do the job that auto writers and publications should be doing to verify what they publish, instead of uncritically repeating the corporate marketing p.r. line. When people have done this in the past GM has routinely lost, and I see absolutely no change in their corporate attitude currently. I do these sorts of discovery requests for a living---why don't you contact GM and see if they will cooperate and provide this material if I put together a list?



--Chris Kennedy
There are several problems I have with your logic:

1. Information passed down through forums such as this, has a high degree of unreliability depending on the sources.

2. Who is to say that Corvette Magazine and others didn't pass on faulty information regarding Lutz, etc. Where do you think some of the car rags get their information from? Well, you're looking at one source right here, as well as I'm sure, Corvette Forum, Digital Corvettes, Z06Vette.com and all the other automotive forum web sites. In fact, in a lot of cases, the magazines will even mention that the information they are publishing came off the internet.

3. Other than I believe Corvette Quarterly, I have yet to read any other publications either online, or physical rags, that have conducted in-depth interviews with Peters and some of the Powertrain engineers.

4. You're basically calling Peters a liar, discounting everything he had to say and basing your information on what has been published in magazines which in several cases, comes from the internet.

To question the validity of what Peters has to say is one thing. To basically come short of insulting the guy is another. You're entitled to your opinions, but if you're going to flame the man and nail him to a cross, at least have more solid information than what you've read in magazines...

I'm not saying that Peters is or isn't 100% accurate, and I'm not saying he is or he isn't lieing. However, I'm willing to place much more belief on the words that come out of his mouth, and the mouths of GM Engineers, more so than what I read in some magazine. In my opinion, Hib Halverson came much closer to "the source", than a lot of the magazines have thus far.

For what it's worth, Dave Hill mentioned at a talk last year that Lutz had little input on the design of the car. Two other Corvette engineers I spoke with last year that had absolutely nothing to do with the design of the C6 basically said the same thing Peters said in the interview. So who's to say who is right and who is wrong.

Last but not least, is it REALLY that important whether or not the C6 was designed after an Air Force jet, a 747, or the Goodyear Blimp? So what if parts of the car have design cues from Ferrari, Audi, or Fiat....who really cares???

ALL cars have design cues that come from predecessors and the competition. If you really feel that you have the desire and the insight to initiate a massive wave of change in the field of automotive design, then consider getting a job in the field and then you'll actually be able to speak from personal experience and have better insight into why cars are designed the way they are, and in particular, the Corvette.

Whether or not someone likes an automotive design, is purely relative and personal choice based upon desire and emotion. If you find the design of the C6 to be of poor taste and not within your liking, great. Calling the designer a liar, and insulting him is basically the same as what armchair quarterbacks do. Everyone thinks they can play the game much better than the actual quarterbacks involved in the football game, but what they fail to see is that the perspective on the outside, is much much different than the perspective on the inside. Unless you actually work for GM, and you are in close contact with GM Design, GM Engineering, and GM upper management, you really can't put 100% emphasis on anything you hear or read that didn't come from the horse's mouth.
 
Chris Kennedy said:
No bickering--If "Rob" wants to talk about it any further he can just contact me separately.

--Chris Kennedy
Nope. No bickering. :) We have a difference of opinion, and I see no reason why we can't openly discuss it here and continue to invite the participation and insight from other members. That's how we learn and that's part of the reason why these forums exist. :)
 
Maybe the Corvette Forum is a nice place to ask questions, despite my many posts, help and years, here. Sorry, Rob. You blew my interest in this place. let it go, pal.
 

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