C6 starts without key fob

[lov-n-life]

Once the car is shut down, and the fob removed, can the tranmission be taken out of reverse? If so, will it start without the fob?

That is a very good question!?

 

[Dad]

I think there is some confusion about the no key required start with the C6. Clutch down with the emergency brake on or off, gearshift lever in any position, the car will start with the fob inside. With the fob moved a little more than a car length away it will not start in any of the above configurations and will put a message on the DIC that there has been “No fob detected”. Built into the C5 theft deterrent system you could start the car but it would move only about 6” at best. I would assume that the same type of thinking would be built into the C6 but I haven’t tried that scenario yet. If in fact the C6 was started by a saleman in a show room without the fob, I wonder where the other one was, in the compartment?

There is a few things I don't like about the C6 but this is a non issue to me.

 

[Mr.Cool]

Yes you can take it out of gear and no assuming you could get in without the fob the car won't start.

Dad
I tried it on mine, the car started.

Once the car is shut down, and the fob removed, can the tranmission be taken out of reverse? If so, will it start without the fob?

 

[Dad]

You tried what and it started?

 

[EHS]

... If in fact the C6 was started by a saleman in a show room without the fob, I wonder where the other one was, in the compartment?

No, locked up in the office in a file cabinet, about 18 car lengths away. I made sure of it.

 

[EHS]

You tried what and it started?

I believe he replied to your post, that has since been edited.

Here it is again:

Yes you can take it out of gear and no assuming you could get in without the fob the car won't start.

Dad
I tried it on mine, the car started.

What he meant, I believe, is that you can take the car out of reverse, without the fob present, and the car can be started, without the fob present.

If I seem overly focused on this, it is becasue if I have any interest in a C6, it will be a convertible, which as I'm sure you know, is more open than the coupe when the roof is down.

And, having lived with convertibles for over thirty years, if I run into a store to get a paper or dognut, I normally don't put the top up, roll up the windows and lock up. Then have to do the reverse when I come back out.

I normally park the car, take the key, lock the car (which on the C5 also sets the alarm), go into the store, and come back. I don't bother with the top....

It seems to me, from what I've read, that this is now a "drive away" opportunity for the C6, since especially in the convertible, you can hop in pretty easily with the top down.

To make it perfectly clear and easy to understand, if the fobless start is possible, convertible owners will be faced with putting their tops up and down even when they pull over at the local Dairy Queen for a shake.

Seems like a legitimate concern to me, so, why is it not reasonable to you?

 

[Dad]

It seems to me, from what I've read, that this is now a "drive away" opportunity for the C6, since especially in the convertible, you can hop in pretty easily with the top down.

To make it perfectly clear and easy to understand, if the fobless start is possible, convertible owners will be faced with putting their tops up and down even when they pull over at the local Dairy Queen for a shake.

Seems like a legitimate concern to me, so, why is it not reasonable to you?

I wrote up a nice big answer to this and then delete it. You need to go find out for yourself. My guess is nobody is going to make you believe that you can't go get into a fobless C6 and drive away.

 

[EHS]

I wrote up a nice big answer to this and then delete it. You need to go find out for yourself...

I did.

See the third post in this thread -- hence my concern.

Sorry you felt the need to delete your "nice big answer."

I would have like to have heard what it said. All the best, Dad.

 

[vettepilot]

I believe the C4C5 thread had to do with locking and exiting the vehicle with the engine running. Where does he state that not shutting the car down allows someone to take off with your car?

I'm trying to understand as well and will see what I can turn up.

Leon

In that C4C5 thread, the question was asked, "What would happen if the driver gets out of the car with the FOB in their pocket to get a newspaper while the car is running, will the engine continue to run?" The answer was yes from C4C5.
So what that question represented was concern from someone who thought the FOB kept the engine running, not just to unlock the ignition circuit and such.
I don't remember if they asked about the door locking, but I think, (I'm NOT a C6 owner so keep that in mind) that in any vehicle that has electronic keyless security features, the doors will not lock when the engine is running, I believe there is a feature to prevent this.
Even back to 1993 when the PKE system debuted, if the key was in the ignition and the engine was running, the doors would not lock, I don't recall if they could be locked with the key in the ignition and the engine was not running, but I think that they would not lock. Key FOB just sitting on the seat was another story.

Going back to the early column lock designs from GM, the transmission selector, whether manual or auto had to be in reverse or Park to lock the column, and allow the key to be removed from the switch. Some manual transmission owners that replaced the factory 4 speed shifter with an aftermarket shifter didn't connect the linkage to the column lock, this allowed the key to be removed regardless of which gear the car was left in. That's also one of the reasons one would see the backup lights illuminated while the vehicle was driving down the highway.

Anyway, that's how I remember those things.

vettepilot

 

[Dad]

Holy crap Batman my C6 is gone!!!

I did.
See the third post in this thread -- hence my concern.
Sorry you felt the need to delete your "nice big answer."
I would have like to have heard what it said. All the best, Dad.

I deleted it because there were some sequences that I hadn't tried yet. So this morning I took the top off, backed it out in the drive, shut it off in first gear, didn't set the emergency brake and got out. It dinged at me 3 times and displayed in the DIC to set the brake. Took both fobs and put them on top of my CRT, 48' away, took a picture, and went back to the car. My intent was to get my stepladder and climb in over the door as it could happen with a convertible. Instead I thought before I do that you might as well eliminate one scenario by using the door. I got in, pushed the clutch in and hit the start button. It started right up and since I was in first gear I drove out of the drive onto the road thinking when is this thing going to stop. It didn't, I drove it 2 miles down the road and turned around by backing up, and put it in first gear again and went through the gears again and drove home. The only thing I didn't do was stop and set the emergency brake but otherwise I used all of the functions required to drive it to a chop shop.

Now I'm glad I deleted my message because I didn't believe it even started without the fob, let alone that I would be able to drive it 2 miles away. Not sure just how far it would have gone because I'm here alone and would have had to walk home and 2 miles was enough for me. As you are aware I didn't think it was possible and even less likely that GM could have missed such an important need to have the car disabled when left by the driver and the fob in any condition of shift and brake lever locations.

The attached pictures are the before, in the drive and the after, in the garage after a 4 mile drive. I know they could be faked but I just wanted to show the approximate distance that the fobs were from the car, believe it or not, but I sure do now.

Thank you GM.

 

[EHS]

...Now I'm glad I deleted my message because I didn't believe it even started without the fob, let alone that I would be able to drive it 2 miles away. Not sure just how far it would have gone because I'm here alone and would have had to walk home and 2 miles was enough for me. As you are aware I didn't think it was possible and even less likely that GM could have missed such an important need to have the car disabled when left by the driver and the fob in any condition of shift and brake lever locations...
Thank you GM.

Dad,

You are a true gemtleman.

It's hard to find someone these days who has the vourage and honesty to admit that they were wrong. Not only that, you actually took the time to try it out and report back, for everyone's benefit.

You're a true gentleman (I know I already mentioned that), and if I didn't already have one, I'd want you for my dad.

Thank you again, and all the best.

 

[lov-n-life]

I deleted it because there were some sequences that I hadn't tried yet. So this morning I took the top off, backed it out in the drive, shut it off in first gear, didn't set the emergency brake and got out. It dinged at me 3 times and displayed in the DIC to set the brake. Took both fobs and put them on top of my CRT, 48' away, took a picture, and went back to the car. My intent was to get my stepladder and climb in over the door as it could happen with a convertible. Instead I thought before I do that you might as well eliminate one scenario by using the door. I got in, pushed the clutch in and hit the start button. It started right up and since I was in first gear I drove out of the drive onto the road thinking when is this thing going to stop. It didn't, I drove it 2 miles down the road and turned around by backing up, and put it in first gear again and went through the gears again and drove home. The only thing I didn't do was stop and set the emergency brake but otherwise I used all of the functions required to drive it to a chop shop.

Now I'm glad I deleted my message because I didn't believe it even started without the fob, let alone that I would be able to drive it 2 miles away. Not sure just how far it would have gone because I'm here alone and would have had to walk home and 2 miles was enough for me. As you are aware I didn't think it was possible and even less likely that GM could have missed such an important need to have the car disabled when left by the driver and the fob in any condition of shift and brake lever locations.

The attached pictures are the before, in the drive and the after, in the garage after a 4 mile drive. I know they could be faked but I just wanted to show the approximate distance that the fobs were from the car, believe it or not, but I sure do now.

Thank you GM.

Did you happen to try placing the same scenario with the trans in reverse? Seems like GM made a HUGE goof here!!! Let's hope no would be thieves are reading up on all the Corvette forums!

 

[vettepilot]

Have you tried to go through the correct procedure as written in the owner's manual to see if the car is secure, cannot be started etc. If that fully secures the ignition, then I guess Chevy expected people to actually use the correct procedure. Anything other than that, and they are on their own in respect to whether or not the ignition circuit and car is secure.


vettepilot

 

[Dad]

Have you tried to go through the correct procedure as written in the owner's manual to see if the car is secure, cannot be started etc. If that fully secures the ignition, then I guess Chevy expected people to actually use the correct procedure. Anything other than that, and they are on their own in respect to whether or not the ignition circuit and car is secure.


vettepilot

Vettepilot,

To answer your question directly, yes I have used the "correct" method to start and drive the car somewhere around 40 times. This thread started because it was stated that it "could" be started without the fob. If you read the owners manual, which I did and do to refresh my knowledge of how everything works, it is very lacking in good information. The statement in the manual is "The keyless access transmitter must be in the vehicle for the ignition to work". Right now I would say that it is not a true statment. It also says "Notice: If you do not put the manual transmission in REVERSE (R) before exiting your vehicle, the battery will drain and could be damaged. Always put a manual transmission in REVERSE (R) before shutting off your engine and exiting your vehicle". It says nothing about being able to start it without the fob if you don't follow these instructions, just that it will drain the battery. Since we are all human it is possible for someone to get out without doing everything by the book leaving the vehicle in a condition that will allow it to be started.

I didn't do it as a test but you all missed one important point that allowed this to happen. I just tried the same thing with the windows up and it would not start, that is why it wouldn't do it the first time I tried it. It also locked the door and I had to use the ladder to get inside. Remember I said I went out and opened the door and got in. The fob was 48' away and with the windows down it did not lock the car. I'm sure there is more to find out but right now I got to go wash the egg off my face.

 

[Mr.Cool]

Dad thats what I was referring to when I said I tried it, the car started. And I was able to drive it. There is no mention of this in the manual just a reference to killing your battery if you leave it out of reverse when you shut the car down.

I deleted it because there were some sequences that I hadn't tried yet. So this morning I took the top off, backed it out in the drive, shut it off in first gear, didn't set the emergency brake and got out. It dinged at me 3 times and displayed in the DIC to set the brake. Took both fobs and put them on top of my CRT, 48' away, took a picture, and went back to the car. My intent was to get my stepladder and climb in over the door as it could happen with a convertible. Instead I thought before I do that you might as well eliminate one scenario by using the door. I got in, pushed the clutch in and hit the start button. It started right up and since I was in first gear I drove out of the drive onto the road thinking when is this thing going to stop. It didn't, I drove it 2 miles down the road and turned around by backing up, and put it in first gear again and went through the gears again and drove home. The only thing I didn't do was stop and set the emergency brake but otherwise I used all of the functions required to drive it to a chop shop.

Now I'm glad I deleted my message because I didn't believe it even started without the fob, let alone that I would be able to drive it 2 miles away. Not sure just how far it would have gone because I'm here alone and would have had to walk home and 2 miles was enough for me. As you are aware I didn't think it was possible and even less likely that GM could have missed such an important need to have the car disabled when left by the driver and the fob in any condition of shift and brake lever locations.

The attached pictures are the before, in the drive and the after, in the garage after a 4 mile drive. I know they could be faked but I just wanted to show the approximate distance that the fobs were from the car, believe it or not, but I sure do now.

Thank you GM.

 

[motorman]

Vettepilot,

To answer your question directly, yes I have used the "correct" method to start and drive the car somewhere around 40 times. This thread started because it was stated that it "could" be started without the fob. If you read the owners manual, which I did and do to refresh my knowledge of how everything works, it is very lacking in good information. The statement in the manual is "The keyless access transmitter must be in the vehicle for the ignition to work". Right now I would say that it is not a true statment. It also says "Notice: If you do not put the manual transmission in REVERSE (R) before exiting your vehicle, the battery will drain and could be damaged. Always put a manual transmission in REVERSE (R) before shutting off your engine and exiting your vehicle". It says nothing about being able to start it without the fob if you don't follow these instructions, just that it will drain the battery. Since we are all human it is possible for someone to get out without doing everything by the book leaving the vehicle in a condition that will allow it to be started.

I didn't do it as a test but you all missed one important point that allowed this to happen. I just tried the same thing with the windows up and it would not start, that is why it wouldn't do it the first time I tried it. It also locked the door and I had to use the ladder to get inside. Remember I said I went out and opened the door and got in. The fob was 48' away and with the windows down it did not lock the car. I'm sure there is more to find out but right now I got to go wash the egg off my face.

the key word is "always",i can not believe the way some people on this board are just looking to nit pick GM. why do you think the battery will run down,because the ignition is still "ON" i can not believe that people can hold a job if you can not follow the correct instructions. good thing they are not working with munitions.

 

[EHS]

the key word is "always",i can not believe the way some people on this board are just looking to nit pick GM....good thing they are not working with munitions.

For me the "key thing" is the "fob."

Like the manual says: "The keyless access transmitter must be in the vehicle for the ignition to work".

That's not a picked nit. That's just a mistake.

You're right, good thing they aren't in munitions, because the instructions from the manufacturer of the bomb are just plain wrong.

Bottom line, for me, just like for GM, the keyless access transmitter should be in the vehicle for the ignition to work. Just like on my C5, where the key needs to be in the vehicle for the ignition to work.

Have you gotten your recall notice yet?

 

[Dad]

Motorman,

You need to re-read what was said/not said and how the ignition and the RAP works on the C6. Nothing is/was mentioned about being able to start the vehicle without the fob inside. In fact it did say, “The keyless access transmitter must be in the vehicle for the ignition to work". You are correct about people not following instructions, they’re human. I would suspect that there will/should be instructions in the mini vans to tell people to remove the children before they go into their place of employment for 8 or more hours. A great tragedy in their lives, but it does happen because they are human.

I’m sure glad that I don’t work with you in munitions Motorman, because I do reload some 40 different cartridges. The manuals have in the past had conflicting information in them and use of it could have been a tragedy. Knowing that it is wrong by experience I have contacted the powder manufacturer and eventually there was a warning issued. When I was flying I went through more than just routine pre-flight because I can function better when I’m not worried about something I should have checked.

As far as holding a job that’s a thing of the past. After 34 years in manufacturing research and special projects, and 4 patents I’m retired. I had to write instructions manuals for those special projects so I do know something about manuals. Still working in my shop on 2 more patents/copyrights and some auto restorations.

Are we nit-picking GM, you bet, when I spend that much money I would like it to be right. In this case I can live with this, but why should I?

 

[motorman]

Motorman,

You need to re-read what was said/not said and how the ignition and the RAP works on the C6. Nothing is/was mentioned about being able to start the vehicle without the fob inside. In fact it did say, “The keyless access transmitter must be in the vehicle for the ignition to work". You are correct about people not following instructions, they’re human. I would suspect that there will/should be instructions in the mini vans to tell people to remove the children before they go into their place of employment for 8 or more hours. A great tragedy in their lives, but it does happen because they are human.

I’m sure glad that I don’t work with you in munitions Motorman, because I do reload some 40 different cartridges. The manuals have in the past had conflicting information in them and use of it could have been a tragedy. Knowing that it is wrong by experience I have contacted the powder manufacturer and eventually there was a warning issued. When I was flying I went through more than just routine pre-flight because I can function better when I’m not worried about something I should have checked.

As far as holding a job that’s a thing of the past. After 34 years in manufacturing research and special projects, and 4 patents I’m retired. I had to write instructions manuals for those special projects so I do know something about manuals. Still working in my shop on 2 more patents/copyrights and some auto restorations.

Are we nit-picking GM, you bet, when I spend that much money I would like it to be right. In this case I can live with this, but why should I?

i guess your point is that you should NOT have to put your C-6 in reverse to shut of the ignition completely so i should be ****ed that i have to put mine auto in park and i should be complaining to GM about this also, correct?

 

[Dad]

i guess your point is that you should NOT have to put your C-6 in reverse to shut of the ignition completely so i should be ****ed that i have to put mine auto in park and i should be complaining to GM about this also, correct?

No, that’s not my point at all as you have proved, people don't pay attention to what is written. I also said “people are human’” meaning that they will make a mistake now and then. With the automatic it is a given that you put it in park and was a requirement to remove the key. Actually I have no idea how the C6 starting system on the C6 automatic works and if it will be left vulnerable if left in a certain, uninstructed condition. All I was saying was that in the condition I, and others, described a 6-speed equipped C6 Corvette can be driven away without the fob. You can assume any condition of torment you chose, it can be done.