*Callaway Corvettes and potentials for the future Thread*

[EricVonHa]

Just FYI, I think it's the December issue.



Just out of curiousity, if you don't think eBay prices of Callaways that are actually sold makes a difference on their prices, why would you think a few people discussing prices on a web forum would?

To answer your question, the CAC Callaway forum is the only, and I mean the only, on-line resource for a potential Callaway buyer. This is the only vast source of technical, comsetic, pricing and performance information anywhere. Ask yourself Mr Aurora, how many months did you spend here reading, reading and doing more reading and research before you decided to make a purchase (albeit non-Callaway) ? I'd do the same thing if I had to buy another one. If you call Callaway cars, sure, Joanne does an awesome job of sending through the documentation of the cars and Reeves will be able to tell you that he remembers driving the car and so forth. But, if you really need to know your stuff across the board, this is the only place to visit for an uneducated buyer. This is what disheartens me so much when I see people posting stuff about what is wrong with various cars for sale and the criticisms that occur.

Also, back on the Ebay topic: today, the advertised pricing from Ebay will cause an uneducated buyer to make a "pricing decision". What other market guidelines are there? None at this point (other than off-line discussions that take place between various people). The early Corvette years have two established governing bodies which regulate authenticity, quality, content, condition, exactness, attention to detail, etc. They are the NCRS and Bloomington. To date, the Callaway twin turbos have not been (formally) indoctrinated into those programs. Sure, you can get your car certified as a C4, but the Callaway certifications have not been completed, yet.

When Bloomington and NCRS do have specific certifications for Callaway cars-- trust me, you're going to see Ebay and this site become less of a pricing guideline resource. Think about it. Is someone going to buy an L-88 Corvette off of Ebay in which the seller claims it is all original yadda yadda yah? A car like that could sell for over $150k "if" it's truly correct. You know what, if it has a Top Flight NCRS certification and was also recently certified by Bloomington, I'd buy that car in a heartbeat sight unseen for whatever the seller wanted (within reason). NCRS and Bloomington certifications are no joke and the scrutiny is absolutely intense.

Until the Callaways get to that level within those organizations (it's not too far off) this site is the only other resource for valuable information. Ebay is great for selling ice to eskimos. This informational site is the ice that the Callaway eskimo is looking for.... trust me. More than one person has commented to me about taking a strong stand on the discussion of pricing info, and, I'm glad that this issue is turning the corner and headed the right way.

 

[EricVonHa]

Call it what you may, rude, whatever, I was standing at the VB&P buying a ton of stuff for my race car when you walked by on the phone. You were on the phone, I was talking with the owner of VB&P. Is that what you're referring to? In the building?

No in the building is not what I am referring to . But then again you see me and don't even say hello WTF. I tried to approach you near the parts section you were on the phone and I called your name you looked at me and turned around and walked away from me . There wasn't any body else near us you were a car lenght away from me and ignored me that was just two rows away from the Callaway display and our cars.

Pete, stop whining. And that's what it is at this point. I'm calling a spade a spade. Tag your it! I did not here or see you while zoning on the phone, period.

And, it would've been totally ridiculous to interrupt my conversation with VB&P and your cell phone call while in the building. I figured if we bumped into each other later on then great!

Jeez, I feel like I had a one night stand and the chick is obsessed with me calling her or saying hi. I'll say hi next time, ok?

 

[Peer81]

Turns out to be a nice topic after all

There is just a thing (i think) that isn't right!
I agree on leaving behind the "easy to say" negative reply's. These question's only get some "personal" reply's which are not a standard. (hope to formulated this correctly in english..)
If you've seen the car in question and you are willing to make a detailed topic on this forum on the car i don't see any problems! I think Aurora here put a very nice and detailled topic on a red Callaway. I can only say: Way to go! When you read such a topic you see (on picture's) and in text the positive and "mostly" negative point's on the vette. Sorry but when you judge a car mostly you'll get what's wrong with it and not all the this that are right. You can make up your own mind when you see a picture if a scratch is big or not (refured to the text) If you're looking for a daily Callaway the scratches don't matter and when you're looking for a NCRS upcomming Callaway is does! I don't see no Callaway's for seal with some negative points in there list, no only positive things or the standard option's. There is no seller that makes a photo from his car where there is a big scratch sitting in the paint, scratches are always put away! So detailed reviews are great to get a lot of info on a car (callaway)!

Next thing (just taking Eric's reply as a example but i've seen this more on this forum.

By whose standards? Just because you see most of these cars show up on Ebay with 20k miles? Comon! I have news for you… history repeats itself. If you’re looking for an education, do some research on what average or slightly above average high mileage L-88 Vettes are bringing for re-sale. For the couple hundred cars that are out there—they still sell for staggering prices, even if they have high mileage on the clock. A rare car is a rare car.

Why are you (not only Erik) seeing the Callaways as a (not really in time, but already in price) Collector, maybe they are in about 10 to 15 years but now i think (personal) it is still just a very nice C4 with B2K options etc which holds his value much more than a normal C4 and that's it! A Callaway isn't a Collector yet! So i wonder why "any price" is good for a Callaway no mather what mileage, are some members on this forum trying to put the price on Callaway's higher then it is right now? Still the market decide's if any car is a collector and the price will to trough the roof and not the owners..imo

And if we have a forum here with reply's on Callaway's for sale like "whow nice color" yes, looks great" and "this one's a steal (no mather what price) would this bring good info on potential Callaway buyers? I think if you drop all negative reply's and detailed reviews on for sale Callaway's please also leave the positive reply's behind, it's just as influentiel as negative reply's!

Just my 2 cents..

Groeten Peter.

 

[callaway4fun]

Eric face the facts you come on here preaching on what we should do with the group and the direction we should go . Cut the BS you have not posted here in almost a year and you get on your soapbox and start preaching . Well lets just cut the crap you totally ignored everyone here at Carlilse and now we are supposed to be greatful that you are finally posting again. You call a spade a spade. Then realize you have another agenda here that is why you are posting again. If you don't have the time to say Hi . Then BUG OFF! Everyone at Carlilse could not believe the fact you could not even say hi because you are so BUSY BS excuses Next time if you think I am whining at least have the courage to say it to my face . You are the person with the issues here . Race on!

 

[TurboLuigi]

Eric, Come to think of it you were too busy last year as well. What Gives?


-Luigi
:cool

 

[*89x2*]

Here is where we are at (from what I have seen or been advised) for judging a car as of right now...


Locally, it is up to the judging group to set the car into its class - few, to some at best recognize the cars as "factory" and place them into stock classes - most place the cars into "modifieds"

Nationally:Bloomington has "certified" Callaways for years - but what does that really mean at this point?? I recall a blue one a few years ago that was Bloomington Certified - asking mid-30's which it could be said was within reason at that time for that particular car, hence - not really adding to its value. ( I hope this changes as cars age and are recognized a bit more).

NCRS: Reports right now are they DO NOT recognize AeroBody cars as stock and you will be losing points if so equipped - I also heard the books are not really accurate regarding the B2K's - I heard from a fellow associated w/ the NCRS and they still are wondering what is correct...
I was told last year that even though 1989 cars are eligable, to wait 10 years for the issues to be sorted out w/ these cars, as the paper the certification is written upon will be worth far more than an earlier judged car - My thoughts are that w/ paperwork, it should be fine - obviously things need to be worked on a bit more...

e-bay : Interesting to follow and certainly has taken over Hemmings #1 spot for Callaway used car ads. However, where we used to see prices, we now see bids... Where we used to never know if a car sold from the print ads, we now must speculate if the bids were legit and if the car is really off the market...

Remembering to use each marketplace tool as just that, a tool - there are many variables to factor...

The last 3 Vettes I bought were all private party sales in non-bidding environments. A price was set, seller & potential buyer sat down, face to face and we decided what the bottom line would be...

I personally would never buy a car, any car, sight unseen off the net or even by phone.
Selelrs generally lie to the degree of one level - what??? What did that mean??
It means a seller w/. agreat car has a good one, perfect really means almost and good - well, expect to do some work.
Again, my experiences, my thoughts.

*******************************************************

Now, L88's.

B2K's are often looked at, as the "future L88's"... Tonight, I asked one of the Corvette World's foremost L88 experts a few questions about the fabled L88 Vetes and here is what was said... (not directly quoted however)

C. How does mileage affect L88's values?

K. It really doesen't, as a 30k mi car is in the same as others w/ more/less miles.

C. Less, like the one w/ 16 miles?

K. well, it had 12 miles, but not the orig engine. Value was much higher on that car.

C. Even w/ out the orig eng.?

K. Yes, but the orig block is avail.

C. Are there any L88's w/ over 100k mi on them?

K. No, none I have ever seen.

C. If there were, how would values be affected?

K. I doubt they would. An L88 is an L88 - really.

C. So the option is what is most important then?

K. Yes, If it has the L88 option and is original, yes.

C. O.K., besides the option and originality, what else?

K. Doccumentation!

C. Anything else?

K. Everything else is secondary...

C. So Options, Originality, and paperwork make the cars value more than anything?

K. yes.

C. Thanks very much for you time and honesty w./this

 

[*89x2*]

Please read and adhere to the post below - Thanks

Folks, please read this in case it was missed earlier...

Folks, while a healthy debate I suppose, was "bound to happen" at some point, I would like it to stay close to track.

I will be splitting this portion of the thread away from the Callaway For sale thread, so the original portions stay and if the debate about values cares to continue, it shall do so in a respectable manner -

Please review your posts and make sure they fall within the guidelines here and as always, if you have issue with another, take it to e-mail or p.m.

Any questions, feel free to drop me a note -Thanks - Chris

 

[EricVonHa]

"C"- I'm glad to see that you've taken the time to reiterate and paraphrase much of what I've previously stated. As everyone can see, the comparisons in the collector car market of Callaway cars that are nearly 20 years old are growing seemingly familiar to those Corvette legends that are nearly 40 years old.

I hope that everyone can take a step back, look outside the box, and see the big picture in the grand scheme of the Callaway cars enthusiasm and the individuals that own them. Some people are into this for the social value (sorry, I'm not), others are into these cars for the fun of it and the thrill that it brings them, and others are into these cars for the long term value prospect. Whatever it may be, I think we've beaten the valuation topic to death and how to discuss it. I thank the people that have contacted me privately via phone and otherwise with the kind words of encouragement. If anyone still has any misplaced feelings or needs their panties untangled-- please don't take it personally. I don't.

There was a message to distribute here and hopefully anyone that is reading this, registered users or not, they probably realize by now that these cars are something special in the market place. Great bargains can be had, and with gas prices recently rising disproportionately to the rest of the economy, we're again possibly looking at a repeat of the early/mid 70's when the muscle car era began its journey into historical significance. If you haven't bought a Callaway yet-- now is the time!

 

[90Callaway]

Eric - It's really not cool that you have no active participation in the group for over a year and then insult people when they call you out on it when you suddenly reappear as Eric Auqa Von Ha Man spouting about car values. Or that you don't even bother to speak to anyone at events where Callaway Cars and the COG are represented. If you want to help the cause (i.e. - spreading the word about Callaway cars and their rarity) then be active in the real world and not a keyboard cowboy.

I'm not a "Callaway Guy" either but I am also a car guy. Although, I do love my Callaway and enjoy being a part of the COG. I have many other cars and a '69 Camaro drag car that I race. I also have other hobbies that take up my interests like motorcycling and boating. I still manage to find time to participate in one Callaway event a year and re-establish contact with the friends I have made in the COG.

If you don't want to particpate actively that's obviously your choice. There are plently of Callaway owners that don't. But the fact is that you used to be involved, you rode the COGs coat tails to Bloomington and then you disappeared. When questioned about it you made up every lame excuse in the book. Do what you must but if you want to participate in discussions here I think you should consider adjusting your attitude.

 

[*89x2*]

"C"- I'm glad to see that you've taken the time to reiterate and paraphrase much of what I've previously stated. As everyone can see, the comparisons in the collector car market of Callaway cars that are nearly 20 years old are growing seemingly familiar to those Corvette legends that are nearly 40 years old.

"E" - It was all I could do @ 1:20 a.m. to recall everything mentioned :crazy in the conversation...

I do believe the B2K's, Corvette Challenge, and Grand Sport Corvettes will be the only three (C4) models set to really hold their values strongly and consistently :cool

While there are a few other limited run C4's that were neat and interesting, the three models above appeal to the widest range of enthusiasts and have the following:
Big Power
Low Production #'s
Style and desirability

I should add, the other factors that will determine value when comparing one car in a bunch to another would be:

• Options
• Condition
• Mileage

^^ IN THAT ORDER!

Mileage though IS a factor and it would be hard to say a car w/ 100k isn't worth less than a car w/ 10k - while the options (in this case, we are talking B2K still, right ) the overall condition is important and then how many miles does it have...

Generally, with high mileage comes diminished condition - this is true on any car however, remembering the most important factor is OPTIONS, the other two factors simply make the difference between a nice car and a mint car to which the values would not be the same.




One thing that I have been especially proud of, is the way the Callaway Corvettes are represented in the Corvette Community. We as a group have a lot of fun at the events and things we do.

Eric, I believe that is one of the keys to the success and visibility we have had over the past 4-5 years has been the participation both online and at the shows - I hope you consider participating in both areas again more in the future. However, if not, that is fine too - to each their own. Please recognize though that as a group, we have seen a lot more positive than there was happening back in the mid-late 90's with these cars which had virtually fallen off the radar screen.

Eric, I hope you can join your fellow Callaway Owners and Enthusiasts at the following events listed in this thread: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73667

Enjoy - "C"

 

[Aurora40]

To answer your question, the CAC Callaway forum is the only, and I mean the only, on-line resource for a potential Callaway buyer. This is the only vast source of technical, comsetic, pricing and performance information anywhere. Ask yourself Mr Aurora, how many months did you spend here reading, reading and doing more reading and research before you decided to make a purchase (albeit non-Callaway) ? I'd do the same thing if I had to buy another one. If you call Callaway cars, sure, Joanne does an awesome job of sending through the documentation of the cars and Reeves will be able to tell you that he remembers driving the car and so forth. But, if you really need to know your stuff across the board, this is the only place to visit for an uneducated buyer. This is what disheartens me so much when I see people posting stuff about what is wrong with various cars for sale and the criticisms that occur.

Well, since this thread is all over the place anyway, I just wanted to respond to this.

I appreciate what you are saying to a degree, simply just posting (about any car, not just a B2K) "that car is overpriced", how is that helpful to anyone? But take it for what it's worth. Is there any reason backing up that statement? Is the statement made by someone who has a lot of experience owning, buying, selling, looking for, that car? You don't necessarily have to censor those people to ignore their post as not-valuable. Perhaps someone else has a higher opinion of them and would find it valuable.

And this does happen for all cars. Look at most of the for-sale posts in the C4 section. There's always some chucklehead saying "that's overpriced".

I did learn a lot reading here, and am grateful for the info. But I learned a lot because people post a lot, good and bad. I found threads on conditions of "beater" Callaways useful for getting an idea of the range of conditions these cars had, and the prices they tended to go for. It gave me some perspective on what kind of condition was normal, and what was at the lower end and upper end. I found threads on engines blowing to be valuable in terms of being informative (creating an awareness of a possible issue and an understanding of the cost to repair). And I found threads on how awesome the cars sound and feel under boost valuable and encouraging. Of course, I learned by far the most when I actually went and saw the car I was considering, and took it for a drive.

If the goal is to educate the uneducated, you can't do that by filtering out the bad. That would be trying to brainwash the uneducated. Just the opinion of a guy who neither owns, buys, or sells Callaways (but finds them ultra cool)...

P.S. Feel free to call me "Bob" vs "Mr Aurora".

P.P.S. If you PM me an email add'y, I'll send you the picts/vids of your car at E-town.

 

[Aquaman]

Eric - It's really not cool that you have no active participation in the group for over a year and then insult people when they call you out on it when you suddenly reappear as Eric Auqa Von Ha Man spouting about car values.

Kevin,

While I am a good friend of Eric, he and I are not the same person, I know you know this since we have met on multiple occasions. While I may not feel exactly the way about this that Eric does I do share his sentiment. Why question the value of a Callaway? He's right it does nothing but assist in bring down the value of your cars. A good thing for me if I want to buy one, a bad thing for you if you want to sell one. It makes sense that you just don't comment of the perceived value as being lesser untill you have seen it. As a callaway fan I would say the price of the car is question is well worth it. Even without seeing it. Because I know how rare these cars are and their ability. From where I stand I don't see how or why it would be overpriced, only someone who has seen/driven it could say that.

For what it's worth I likely would have said hi, had I seen ya'll. I didn't get a chance to go this year because like Eric work has me pretty pinned down.

Remember though what Eric's saying is that this is the only place a potential buyer can come and read about their car in a forum based format. And their are not a ton of buyesr for these cars. To scare them off whith shouts of
"Is it overpriced" is not healthy.

A callaway is a callaway like a GNX is a GNX, Like a Turbo T/A is a Turbo T/A. they are not going to make anymore, the pool of available cars gets smaller and smaller every year. If you want one you need to pay what it costs because there is a good chance you may not have the chance to find another.

 

[C-4 Now]

Wow! Some strong opinions here. Many good points brought up about the Callaways and other collector Vetts. As a past L-88 owner and also many other notable eg. 69 Z-28 etc. and current Callaway owner I have found that like all areas of life the buyers and sellers are as varied as the rest of the world. That means these cars at any given point are worth what a seller will sell for, to a buyer willing to pay that price. COG group is very knowlegable and was a great place to further my knowledge of the car. That said I hope you will all cut each other a little slack, quit worrying about future value, [which none of us can really predict] and just enjoy the cars and the people interested in them! Cars and the people who like them are my R&R area JMHO Ike

 

[*89x2*]

Finally, a current guide in print -

While one guide isn't the gospel,. it is a starting point for any conversation regarding values.

Recently I read in a collector car magazine a value guide on some domestics - Sports Car Market was the name of the mag and it seemed to follow sales and auctions, including some greed-bay types thorugh various columns.

At any rate, I thought it was worth sharing here as it might have some value, pun not intended... :cool