Caution lots of pics..today was a good day....C1 with Myers and Tremec!!!

[firstgear]

I will check out the shocks on Wednesday night....usually get home too late from work to do anything but eat and collapse from the day.....

 

[IH2LOSE]

I knew Henny would would be able to help.

Thanks Tom I hope your project is still on course,

 

[stepinwolf]

This is my input

Herb,

I don't wish to imply that I am any engineer when it comes to drive lines, however, both high end suspension set up " How-To " books I have, both describe in detail how your drive shaft should be set up, and clearly state that under no circumstances should the angle exceed 3 degrees at each end.

I will try and get the volumes back ( damm lending of my tech books ) and when I do, I will scan a few pages, and post them.

Stepinwolf

 

[firstgear]

Herb,

I don't wish to imply that I am any engineer when it comes to drive lines, however, both high end suspension set up " How-To " books I have, both describe in detail how your drive shaft should be set up, and clearly state that under no circumstances should the angle exceed 3 degrees at each end.

I will try and get the volumes back ( damm lending of my tech books ) and when I do, I will scan a few pages, and post them.

Stepinwolf

what tom is getting me to do is to set the height properly via the shock lengths....doing that will get me in the bll park....reason it looks so bad now is that the condition it is in, is not a normal condition...I owuld have to have the car airborne to get that condition....god help me if I do!

The instructions for the set up call to have the car sitting on it to get it right....Tom's method is the equivalent of getting the car sitting on the frame and loading it.......by the way, what I have read about drivelines says that the angles must be equal....when they are not equal you run the risk of driveline wind up and unwind due to the difference in the angles....it is that wind/unwind of the shaft that wipes out the bearings......

 

[IH2LOSE]

You know herb you in a funny situation here because if you follow toms recomendations your using the ride hide derived from the shocks you have purchased,Who said what the proper shock lenght should be ??

Is this from a kit you purchased and what does the manufacturer of the kit say is a proper shock lenght

 

[henny496]

shock ht

Hello
The shock ht should be at the 60% area. If the coil over does not sit at this ride ht when the car is together, then the spring is too hard or too soft
If you bought this as a kit from a reputable manufacturer who has dealt with this conversion before, it should be fairly close for the final dimensions
The shock would have to be the same for these dimensions as the spring does, since they are travelling together ( coil over)
You can adjust the shock /spring up or down with the adj nut on the bottom, but if the spring is way out , you should purchase the correct ones. They are not much money and not that hard to change.
I am not sure if the made the part clear about the 2 1/2 inch muffler tube. If you want to check it out properly, the muffler tube would go in place of the spring, so you can see what it looks like at ride ht( simulates the spring with the load on it....body , passengers etc)
The same principle applies to all springs
take care
Tom

 

[firstgear]

You know herb you in a funny situation here because if you follow toms recomendations your using the ride hide derived from the shocks you have purchased,Who said what the proper shock lenght should be ??

Is this from a kit you purchased and what does the manufacturer of the kit say is a proper shock lenght

they say to set everything with the weight of the car on it....but I won't have a full weight car on it till I get to the very end....so in the meantime, what Tom is suggesting will get me close...I will still need to adjust everything once the full weight of the car is on the wheels....I am thinking that once I get it partially set up with the shocks sitting at close to normal ride height that the panhard mounting bracket will be at the right place with enough thread engagement for the heim end...the comment I got from Myers the other day when I was talking about the addition of a spacer for the bracket was "we have never had problems before with enough thread engagement"...so my guess is that with me letting the rear hang that it is further away from the inside portion of the frame.....following Tom's method will get me in the ball park.

Remember, that there is nothing that I am doing in this pre-set up that will cause a problem that can not be adjusted out with the threads of the 4 links or the panhard heim end.....

 

[firstgear]

Hello
The shock ht should be at the 60% area. If the coil over does not sit at this ride ht when the car is together, then the spring is too hard or too soft
If you bought this as a kit from a reputable manufacturer who has dealt with this conversion before, it should be fairly close for the final dimensions
The shock would have to be the same for these dimensions as the spring does, since they are travelling together ( coil over)
You can adjust the shock /spring up or down with the adj nut on the bottom, but if the spring is way out , you should purchase the correct ones. They are not much money and not that hard to change.
I am not sure if the made the part clear about the 2 1/2 inch muffler tube. If you want to check it out properly, the muffler tube would go in place of the spring, so you can see what it looks like at ride ht( simulates the spring with the load on it....body , passengers etc)
The same principle applies to all springs
take care
Tom

tom, your comments were perfect....it made me think of why Myers wants the car to sit on the frame when adjusting everything....including the panhard. In fact welding in the panhard is the piece in addition to the adjustment of the 4 links that they want to have the weight of the car sitting on it......I do understand what you are saying...I figure rather than going to a muffler shop that I will get myself some PVC plastic pipe and I can cut it on my chop saw to the exact dimension I need...then I will jack up the rear end to compress everything at the bottom of the 9".....then I can see where the panhard and everything else comes together.....again...your comments were perfect and provided the insight as to why it was important to set it up with the weight of the car on it and the benefit of making this calculation up front....Myers has provided a number of these rear ends to C1 owners, so I am pretty comfortable that the pieces are proper if I was to follow the directions exactly....your method enables me to check things without having to go full tilt...like having a gas tank with fuel in the car...seats in the car....soft top in the car...battery in the car...bumpers on the car...etc...etc....at any rate....I like it....

regards, Herb

 

[firstgear]

ok...so I didn't wait until tomorrow....I went out and took the shock/coilover off the frame....to see what it would take to disassemble the coil from the shock....after looking at it and fussing with it...I need a coil compressor so I can drop the top retainer and get to the nut under the retainer....with that off, I can get to the spring....even with everything fully loosened up, the spring still have tension on it....if I am reading the info stamped on the spring, they are 10-250, meaning 10 inches free length and a spring rate of 250lbs/inch of compression.....with everything loosened up it is about 9-7/8" long, so it has about 30-40 pounds of force on the end cap as it sits...I need to drop the cap another 1/2 inch or so...meaning I will be hitting about 125-150 pounds of linear force....too much for my hands to hold...need the spring compressor....can probably buy one or rent one from the local parts store.....called Advance Auto Parts and they have a loaner program...go in, pay $40 and you have it....if you bring it back within 45 days they refund your money back....if it breaks, it has a lifetime guarantee, just bring back the pieces and still get your money back....wow...doesn't get any beter than that!!! so I know where I will be stopping on the way home tomorrow night...stay tuned!!!

 

[henny496]

spring removal

Hello Herb
If you had a spanner for the bottom adj nut, the spring would come off if you adj that nut to the bottom
If you use a spring compresser, just be careful, or aim the shock away from you, while removing the spring
You may have 5 in travel shocks, but I guess you will know for sure tomorrow

Tom

 

[firstgear]

Hello Herb
If you had a spanner for the bottom adj nut, the spring would come off if you adj that nut to the bottom
If you use a spring compresser, just be careful, or aim the shock away from you, while removing the spring
You may have 5 in travel shocks, but I guess you will know for sure tomorrow

Tom

I have the spanner wrench, but the bottom retainers (the adjustable end) is not threaded all the way and when I run the lock run down, it runs out of threads and end of story...also there is the adjustment valve at that end...I really think everything comes on and off from the top....hence the need for the spring compressor.....I used one of these before when I had the Datsun B210 and had to change out the front struts....I remember putting my fingers under there and saying prayers please don't slip, if it did it was going to really hurt!!!! I will be careful....I want to fully enjoy the car and not by looking at it with only one eye because the other one was poked out! nor dod I want to shift with only 4 fingers because one was pinched to pieces........so I will be careful......

 

[firstgear]

Hello Herb
The reference I made to about the installed spring ht and installing the muffler tube at that dimension is an easy task to do.
Once you have done that you will see how much the rear end comes up and your driveshaft angle will greatly improve
I would do this before sending it out to the fab shop. Once everything is welded solid, you are stuck, especially when it is painted
All you have to do is to put a jack under the differential to support it and remove the shocks. If you can do that, then e-mail me the dimensions and I will tell you what lenght to cut the spacer tubes( muffler)
Then you can reinstall the coil overs and they will then simulate ride ht.
I would need to know the free length of the spring , the space between the coils and the number of spaces
Then you can level the middle of the frame to the floor with a large level and you will have a better idea of how it looks
If you have vernier/calipers to measure the spring openings( just one) and then a chop saw to cut the muffler tube, as long as both are the same( muffler tube). 1/8 in difference on the muffler tube won't matter for ride ht
let me know
Take care
Tom

free length of spring = 10.125 inches
9 coils
8 spaces
.8125 between coils (13/16)

ready to rock and roll......probably should get a value for 60% as well as 65%, then I will be able to see what difference either one of those makes....

Herb

 

[firstgear]

Fully compressed 11.5 inches
Fully extended 15.25 inches
3.75 inches of travel
60% = 2.25

the difference between 60% and 65% is .1875 so less than a quarter of an inch.....doesn't make much difference 60% and 65%.....

which at a spring rate of 250 pounds per inch, would put the total spring FORCE for both springs at 1125 pounds.....

Larry had reported http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73702 that the rear of his '62 weighed in at about 1400 pounds...if we take off for the rear axle housing and everything attached to it along with the rear wheels, it would not be hard for me to imagine that those pieces that are not sprung are around 300 pounds, give or take.....meaning the 1125 pounds force at 60% compression probably isn't far off!

So I need to measure the extended length between the end caps, subtract 2.25" and that is the length of the spacer I need to cut....since this doesn't have to support really anything, I bought 3" PVC pipe since the spring OD is close to 3".....so that is my plan.....what do you think?

Also, the dog gone spring compressors marred up my springs....if I couldn't get my money back , I would grind down the top of the compressor....but being as cheap as I am.....grrrr.....oh well....I will get some silver touch up paint and no one will ever know, unless Barry climbs under there with a flash light and wants to know what that touch up paint is doing on the springs...HAHA

 

[BarryK]

Also, the dog gone spring compressors marred up my springs....

hey Herb............ what's this touch -up paint doing on your springs man?


h*ll, just take the springs off and get them powdercoated along with all the rest of the stuff!

 

[firstgear]

hey Herb............ what's this touch -up paint doing on your springs man?


h*ll, just take the springs off and get them powdercoated along with all the rest of the stuff!

but I still have to get the buggers back on...otherwise I would....no matter what they are getting marred coming off and getting on....grrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[henny496]

ride ht

Hello Herb
Using the 60% value on the shock you should be about 13.75 in center to center of shock eyes at ride ht ( 11.5 compressed plus 2.25 in)
Your sprngs are 10.125 extended with 8 spaces @ .8125 which gives a total of 6.5 inches. If your spring was bottomed out that would be 10.125 - 6.5 = 3.62 inches. Using 60% of 6.5 inches that is 3.9 inches
3.9 plus 3.62 = 7.52 inches @ ride ht
10.125 - 7.52 is 2.605 inches
The shock extended is 15.25 and at ride ht is 13.75 in which is a difference of 1.5 in
Is there a rubber bumper at the bottom of your shock travel? That would be a cushion block on the rod
I know Koni's have a bumper block of at least an inch. If you do have a bump block, that would have to be factored in . The bump block helps the shock on bottoming out . 3.75 inches does not sound like a lot of travel
take care
Tom
also make sure you did not count 1/2 a coil in your dimensioning( end of spring)

 

[IH2LOSE]

Herb

If I remember the springs were cheap but the shocks and adapters were exspencive, Dont panic yet on the scratch because if you dont like the ride height you may be changing the springs to a higher or lower weight. Also I was sweating all of the details on the bottom of the car, Condtion of welds,brackets and tabs I made,Only to figure out when the body was on the frame you could not see all of this.

 

[firstgear]

new photos.....with adjusted spring height......

ok...using the above previous calculations I cut my tubes to 7.5 inches long....anyone know what I used for tubes in this high dollar set up?

At any rate....with the rear end set at the normal ride hieght, the panhard bar with heim end, all of a sudden had 7/8" thread engagement for a bolt end that is 1/2" in diameter...in other words, plenty of engagement....so that problem solved.......

the angle of the drive shaft looks much better......I think it looks more like what a stock driveshaft is set at....any comments from those of you that have done frame offs with stock driveshafts?

At any rate...this weekend....I have a lot of plans....I will level up the frame and get an idea of how much angle there is in the driveshaft...but as I have said to myself before..."it is what it is", it sin't like I am going to look at it and think, hmmmmm...I am not going to do this....this is full speed ahead....

Also this weekend, I want to drop the body back on....get the notches in the front for the new front suspension towers....check out where the wheels will sit inside the wheel wells...then tear everything down in hopes I can get it next week to the fabrication shop for welding...won't get anything done the following weekend as we have other plans...so the frame needs to sit....

stay tuned.....more to come....will open a new thread next time!!! and thanks Tom!!!!!!!

 

[henny496]

ride ht

Hello Herb
I am sorry if my post sounded concerned. I just wanted you to verify the coil measurements and look fo rthe bumper block, that's all
You have an adjustable shock for ride ht anyway,. You should shoot for the 60% rule, but you won't have a perfect spring for every application
If this is a kit from a manufacturer who sells these, I would not get too worried
Tom

 

[henny496]

looks good

Hi Herb
That looks a lot better. You can adjust the four link rod ends now
Tom