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Changing rocker ratio's

74 454

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Apr 25, 2007
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31
Location
Michigan
Corvette
1974 Brown Coupe 454 4-speed
I have a 74 454 stock never been rebuilt. Looking to change the 1.7 rockers to 1.8 ratio. This year has a low lift cam, so I'm just trying to get it to breath a little more without tearing down the top half of the engine. Should this be a simple swap? Should I be able to reuse the push rods? Being a low lift cam should the extra strain from the 1.8's be rather minimal so lifters and cam will be fine? Lift at the valve is only 0.046 right now. The 1.8's will only get it to 0.048.
 
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't touch it.
To get an additional 0.002" of lift? Nah, not worth it.
There are too many wear factors on the existing valve train components that could come back to bite you halfway through the job.
Mostly the pushrods, which are sure to be worn to match the existing rockers and lifters. Put new ones in and the wear pattern will not match the old lifters.
Leave well enough alone, unless you replace the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers as a complete set.
 
I have a 74 454 stock never been rebuilt. Looking to change the 1.7 rockers to 1.8 ratio. This year has a low lift cam, so I'm just trying to get it to breath a little more without tearing down the top half of the engine. Should this be a simple swap? Should I be able to reuse the push rods? Being a low lift cam should the extra strain from the 1.8's be rather minimal so lifters and cam will be fine? Lift at the valve is only 0.046 right now. The 1.8's will only get it to 0.048.

Assuming that you meant 0.460", it looks like you measured your lift down-stream or on the other side of the rockers. At the valve location, the cam lift has already been multiplied by the rockers, so if we use 0.460 / 1.7 = 0.270 lift at the cam ramp. Using that same ramp lift and the 1.8 rockers, you're looking at 0.270 (1.8) = 0.486" which is a gain of 0.026" at the valve.

Now, the new rockers will also alter just a bit your valve timing, which means that now your intake or exhaust valve will linger out there open for a few more degrees of duration, and there is where the concern is. You have no knowledge of how much travel the piston has made in its upward thrust and much closer it is to a valve; however, if it is a stock engine, chances are that the built-in stock clearances will accommodate the rocker change, but wouldn't you be more comfortable with degreeing your cam and really know where are the valves and piston at a particular crankshaft rotation?;shrug

So, you should degree your cam on the engine the way it is, and then change the rockers on the exhaust side only and degree the exhaust side to make sure that your engine valves are well clear of the piston tops. But by doing the exhaust valve's rockers only, you would have in effect modified your engine to run as if it had a dual pattern cam installed, which is a type of cam that improved many engines in the past.

GerryLP:cool
 
Sorry. Yes I meant 0.460" lift at the valves. For 1974 it's both intake and exhaust the same. I didn't measure anything. I have the original engine spec's from GM. So I just did the math for 1.8 ratio. I still feel 0.486", which is 0.026" increase, is noticable. This is one of the two main differences between the 1970 454 390 hp to my 1974 454 approx 335 hp (270 hp with new Net hp rating). That and compression ratio. 1970 is 10.25 to 1, and 1974 is only 8.25 to 1. Do I really need to worry about valve to piston clearance with 8.25 compression?

Now, push rods and lifter change in wear pattern still is my concern, hense for the posting. Yes, it will change position a little. But at still only 0.486" lift at the valves is the spring tension still pretty stock for the lifters and push rods?

Also, very interesting idea on changing the exhaust lift only. Don't know much about this, except most cams seems to have more lift on the exhaust side than the intake. Can you tell me more? Do they sell half sets of rockers, or do you have to buy them by piece?

Some day I really do want to pull the engine and completely rebuild. Then I would put a higher lift roller cam, lifter, push rod, and spring set. But would like to still use the 1.8 rockers to get a little more lift at a shorter duration to get more lower RPM power. Just don't have the money now.
 
...Do I really need to worry about valve to piston clearance with 8.25 compression?

454,

On a stock engine, I have never had the need to worry about these small changes. The risk is in whether one is sure that one's Vette engine is stock inside...

...Now, push rods and lifter change in wear pattern still is my concern, hense for the posting. Yes, it will change position a little. But at still only 0.486" lift at the valves is the spring tension still pretty stock for the lifters and push rods?

It is perhaps possible that you may have a spring not exerting the potential energy that it did when new, however, it is unlikely that you have one so weak that it will cause problems. Of course, one with a broken coil ring or jammed dampener could still be possible.

...Also, very interesting idea on changing the exhaust lift only. Don't know much about this, except most cams seems to have more lift on the exhaust side than the intake. Can you tell me more? Do they sell half sets of rockers, or do you have to buy them by piece?

This was the way how dual pattern cams came about. In the early 60's (perhaps) the entrepreneur racer did the rocker arm ratio changes which gave the exhaust valve a longer duration and lift, and then the cam manufacturers and some big manufacturers caught on with the practice to cut dual pattern cams (where the exhaust ramps had a bit more duration or lift or both). Typically, you have to buy a set of rockers as a complete set. Stay away from the stamped big manufacturer rockers of vintage 1974. Todays stamped rockers are more accurate and consistent and flex less under load.

I do not presume to know what JohnZ means by his statement, but I get the sense that what he means is that one change alone to the engine usually will not produce a measurable power increase. And I agree with this interpretation 99%.

THERE IS NO MIRACLE 1-CHANGE FORMULA THAT WILL YIELD GOBS OF HORSE POWER FOR AN ENGINE.

However, the 1% I am holding on is for the following: Many of the big-manufacturer's engines came pretty ready for performance. Many times the big manufacturers would produce an engine with a scheduled poor timing curve to make the engine fall within certain parameters. So within these small and narrow changes, one could make the engine perform crispier or more responsive. Granted, some of these poor tuning schedules were in the interest of emissions. Many of these engines are one change away from making that leap into big improvement (but I am not talking about the 305 that your aunt has in her Oldsmobile..:L).

So, if for example, you had determined that the engine needed to "breathe" better, then you are looking at opening-up the intake with an improved intake manifold, a higher flow carburetor (if needed), change the exhaust rockers to create that dual pattern effect (but if you are going that far, then might as well replace the cam with a dual pattern cam that will produce its most at the right engine rpm range), install some headers, and eliminate restrictions on your exhaust system, and tune the distributor curve to take advantage of these changes. In this example, you would be looking at 4 different changes -new intake manifold, new rockers, new headers, and perhaps a new carburetor, and a new cat-back system.

I personally like the dyno reference to measure the horsepower output of a car or engine before and after changes have been made; however, this is pretty expensive, unless you have a connection at the local dyno shop. The only other way to find out how you well you did in improvements is to take it to the track (oval or 1/4 mile).

...Some day I really do want to pull the engine and completely rebuild. Then I would put a higher lift roller cam, lifter, push rod, and spring set. But would like to still use the 1.8 rockers to get a little more lift at a shorter duration to get more lower RPM power. Just don't have the money now.

or blue-print it and install a turbo or supercharger to take advantage of that 8.2:1 ratio...:dancenaughty:thumb
 
Thankyou very much GerryLP for all details! This really helps.

I bought the vette early last year from a good friend of the family that had it since 1977, and has been with the family since then. He would never let anyone else touch it. He did everything. So I'm 99% sure of what I got, and the engine is stock, never been opened. Same goes for the rest of the car. Everything that he had repaired or changed I have recorded after many hours of sitting down with him.

Lastely, my comment on "breathing more", my goal is to just try to get 30 to 40 hp and torque out of this change. Not a 100 or more. I'm also trying to keep it stock looking on the outside. I rebuilt the original quadrajet, have intake, and everything else. Even if I rebuild the whole engine one day, changes will all be internal only. So there's only so much I can do. But roller cam, lifters, push rods, 1.8 rockers, stronger valve springs, and 10.5 compression, I think is very capable of 400 to 450 hp, and 500+ torque. That's perfectly fine for me.

Thankyou again. Not looking to do anything until winter, so I got some time to get my ducks in row.
 
If the lift is .460 with 1.7s, it will go to .518 with 1.8s.

The math is .460/1.7 X 1.8 = new lift.

Higher ratio rockers with in a stock valvetrain can be a double-edged sword. Yes, they'll increase valve lift and, more importantly the area below the lift curves and it will increase air flow, but they also increase the loads on valvetrain parts and, they often lower the engine speed at which valve float occurs. In an engine with high-milege, used springs that valve float speed might be lower enough to interfer with the engine making peak power.

Higher ratio rockers do not change advertised duration nor do they change duration at .050" lift that much, but they do begin to noticeably increase duration as the valve gets to mid-lift. The duration change increases as the valve lift increases.

I would not worry about piston-to-valve clearance on an 8.5:1 engine.

I would not install higher ratio rockers on an engine with high-mileage valve train parts. If the engine is low mileage and the lifters and springs are in good condition, I'd install stiffer aftermarket pushrods and the higher ratio rockers.

Lastly, if you go to higher ratio rockers you must use an engine oil other than one certified API Service SM. With flat tappet engines, when you increase valvetrain loadings SM oils become inadequate.

I'll close by saying that installing a lower restriction exhaust system along with properly tuning the carb and the spark advance may get you as much extra performance as will the 1.8 rockers.
 
Mr. Hib

You might need to check your calculator. Using your formula, I still get 0.487".

Mileage is a little high, 82,000. I run full syn. 10w 40. I have already adjusted the mechanical advance to get 38 degrees at 3800 RPM's. 1974 exhaust was the last year with no cats, so it has a true dual exhaust. Just no headers. I'd still like to keep stock looking. Original quadrajet carb all rebuilt last year.

Diffenately need to consider the risks.
 
Mr. Hib

You might need to check your calculator. Using your formula, I still get 0.487".

My bad.
You're right. I did that on this little hand calculator I have on my desk and I probably got the wrong key. .487 lift is correct.

Mileage is a little high, 82,000. I run full syn. 10w 40. I have already adjusted the mechanical advance to get 38 degrees at 3800 RPM's. 1974 exhaust was the last year with no cats, so it has a true dual exhaust. Just no headers. I'd still like to keep stock looking. Original quadrajet carb all rebuilt last year.

Diffenately need to consider the risks.

Yeah...I'd say the mileage is bit high but, just pull a couple of springs and take them to someone with a spring tester. The valve spring pressure specification is in the Service Manual. If they are within 10% of the Service number, you could try the rockers and see what happens.

In the end, the rockers might not be a bad idea for durablility reasons. I'd install stiffer pushrods, new springs and the 1.8 rockers and see what happens.

But, again, there's probably more of a power increase if you:
1) Decrease exhaust restriction.
2) Get the carb tuned spot-on...most mid-70s stuff runs too lean on RFG.
3) Get the spark just right. 38 deg total is a sort of rule-of-thumb but is not always the best choice. I'd not worry so much about 38 as I would about trying to get it in sooner. Try 34 at 2800-3000 and see how it runs but do that after you're sure you've got your air-fuel ratio at WOT reasonably close.

Lastly, there's no advantage in 10W40 oil unless 1) you've got forged pistons and/or 2) the engine is really worn. A 10W30 is a better choice. If you don't like the oil pressure you see, some mid-70s stuff had low tension pressure reliefs. Sometimes, just putting in the pressure relief valve spring from the hi-po engines bumps the pressure up 20 psi or so.
 
Thanks Hib for the checks and ideas. I'm going to look into those. And I've definately backed off a little on the idea of just swapping out the rockers only at this time until doing somemore homework. Really apprieciate your ideas.

You say mid-70's stuff runs too lean on RFG. Is RFG regular fuel? I always run 93 premium. If it's lean, what are some quick checks? Covering the top of the cab with your hands at idle? Spark plug color? The quadrajet is the 74 original with all original jetting and metering rods. Primaries have #74 jets right now. I believe the GM jet kits only go up to #78. I really didn't think to increase those with the small lift cam it has. Let me know if you have any ideas.

On the timing, here's the whole curve of where I'm at below. I guess I was a little high when I said 38 degrees at 3800 RPM's. Should I try to go any higher earlier?

RPM's 600 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000
Timing 14 22 29 30 30 32 35 36

On using the 10w40 my reasons were for 82,000 miles/34 years of wear. But mostly for big blocks run hot in summer! If it's over 80 degrees out, 200 to 210 degrees is what it runs at. Just thought the slightly higher weight would be helpful at those temperatures. Summer is the only time I run it. My oil pressure gauge shows good pressure, almost too good? It runs between 55 and 75 psi. Most of the time 70 to 75 psi. Is this accurate or tipical? It's the same with 10w40 or 10w30.
 

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