Death of an original engine....but I am happy

[1KULC7]

Well, I wanted to wait until I was finished to share this with all of you. I have been working really hard to save the original engine in the 63, but late October the engine block died. I spend hundreds of hours, two complete rebuilds and thousands of dollars to save the original engine, but all was in vain.

So I worked with Engines Limited (Randy) and rebuilt and exact duplicate of the original engine...casting date and all...paid a lot to get it CORRECTLY Broched with my PAD numbers exactly like the original.

I salvaged all my parts, and reassembled everything, and it LOOKS EXACLTY like my original engine in every detail.

I just finished and its sounds much better and much more on the power curve...I am really happy with the results. So guys I have to now join the ranks of the people that have replacement motors...but just remember I didn't upgrade...I just replaced what I already had...

Do I now consider this a NOM or a restored motor....

It had to be done...I don't think this will hurt me to much for top flight...but just want to keep everything above board...

I worked so hard to keep the original but it died a bad death...large leaks between the cylinder walls leaking around the sleeves...appears the engine had casting flaws that weakened the engine over its lifetime..

The block was destroyed...Pad numbes ground off and is now landfill...my it RIP....

Should have done this in the beginning and save money,..

But hey now I got a Corvette that runs GREAT...no more white smoke....

 

[LT4man]

Congratulations! You must be thrilled with the sound and the power.

I would consider your engine to be original!

Save The Wave!

 

[JohnGrawcock]

:cry Sorry to here of your troubles. I could tell you put alot of love into that car when I met you at FunFest. Hope you enjoy the new motor.

 

[1KULC7]

Thanks John...but its more of a relief then anything else...heck the engine looks just like it did at Funfest...you just can't tell the difference...I compared photos...you can not tell...my worry...I worked four years to get this car ready for TOP FLIGHT...will this affect me from reaching my goal...I hope not...

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks John...but its more of a relief then anything else...heck the engine looks just like it did at Funfest...you just can't tell the difference...I compared photos...you can not tell...my worry...I worked four years to get this car ready for TOP FLIGHT...will this affect me from reaching my goal...I hope not...

Since you brought it up, who are you trying to convince that it is not a replacement motor? Believe me when I say that I fully appreciate the pain you have gone through to prepare this car, but if you are honest with the judges and tell that you built a replica will the result not be the same as if you have left the pad blank? What is the deduction for a NOM? Can that be reduce by having a "correct" motor? Any judges out there that can tell us?

I have a "correct" engine in my 67 coupe, not numbers matching, but it has all the correct castings with appropriate date codes. The pad is blank and will remain that way as long as I own the car.

I find it rather amusing that the NCRS takes takes so much stock in numbers matching and yet in the Driveline (yes, I'm a member) there are ads to rent stamps for blocks or people who will build you a "numbers matching engine."

Like the man said, you can restore it many times but it will be orginal only once.

 

[1KULC7]

Since you brought it up, who are you trying to convince that it is not a replacement motor? Believe me when I say that I fully appreciate the pain you have gone through to prepare this car, but if you are honest with the judges and tell that you built a replica will the result not be the same as if you have left the pad blank? What is the deduction for a NOM? Can that be reduce by having a "correct" motor? Any judges out there that can tell us?

I have a "correct" engine in my 67 coupe, not numbers matching, but it has all the correct castings with appropriate date codes. The pad is blank and will remain that way as long as I own the car.

I find it rather amusing that the NCRS takes takes so much stock in numbers matching and yet in the Driveline (yes, I'm a member) there are ads to rent stamps for blocks or people who will build you a "numbers matching engine."

Like the man said, you can restore it many times but it will be orginal only once.

Before I restamped I asked several NCRS people including judges should I leave it blank or should I go through the EXPENSE and it was and Expense to have the numbers transfered. Only a couple said leave it blank, but most others including the judges told me to have it broached and transfer the numbers from the old block to the replacment. They judge based on what the pad LOOKS like...if it looks too good they take points, if it look bad, they take points if it looks just right no points....the judges even told me were to go and who does the best broaches and stamping...

So as you can see it was a call I had to make and I went with the majority...

However I will NEVER pass off as original...that is just not right.

 

[tigernut]

I probably would have left the pad blank, but can see both points.

I know people who have complained about restamping, yet buy a new windshield and have it "date stamped". What's that about? It isn't the original windshield.

Heck, they may have the original block, but they probably don't have the original internals (piston rings, etc), so how far do you go?

It's a slippery slope.

I say do what you want, it's your car so enjoy it.

Personally I wouldn't buy a classic car without documented paperwork (if I was looking for originality), so "numbers matching" means nothing to me since anything and everything can be forged (even paperwork these days).

Doug

 

[stepinwolf]

Congrats on your choices

Colin,

Glad to see you finally got the engine problem cleared up and that the car is now probably better then it ever was. The only thing made me cringe is the " landfill " thing. Should the old block not have gone to the recycling pile. ?

Stepinwolf

 

[JL66REDCPE]

The most you are going to lose for a complete pad deduction is 88 points during judging. That equates to approx two points on the final score. You still have plenty of points to play with for top flight. Remember you have up to 270 points deducted before you dont quality for top flight. You can make some of that up with driving points. And yes, you now have an NOM or Restored/Restamped Engine car along with at least a Gazillion other Top Flight cars out there.

 

[Grizzly]

Before I restamped I asked several NCRS people including judges should I leave it blank or should I go through the EXPENSE and it was and Expense to have the numbers transfered. Only a couple said leave it blank, but most others including the judges told me to have it broached and transfer the numbers from the old block to the replacment. They judge based on what the pad LOOKS like...if it looks too good they take points, if it look bad, they take points if it looks just right no points....the judges even told me were to go and who does the best broaches and stamping...

So as you can see it was a call I had to make and I went with the majority...

However I will NEVER pass off as original...that is just not right.

If find this to be quite a revelation. In NCRS competion then numbers matching may not be a measure of originality, but a measure of the level of restoration.

I fully agree with Tigernut, it is a slippery slope.

On the other hand we love our old coupes, to my mind the most beautiful cars ever made. I'm glad you have one that runs properly and you can enjoy it. Get that judging business out of the way so you can take it to the Dairy Queen on a Saturday night and let them drool over it, I do.

Griz

 

[1KULC7]

Colin,

Glad to see you finally got the engine problem cleared up and that the car is now probably better then it ever was. The only thing made me cringe is the " landfill " thing. Should the old block not have gone to the recycling pile. ?

Stepinwolf

To releive your recycling worries, I actually sold it as scrapped...

 

[1KULC7]

If find this to be quite a revelation. In NCRS competion then numbers matching may not be a measure of originality, but a measure of the level of restoration.

I fully agree with Tigernut, it is a slippery slope.

On the other hand we love our old coupes, to my mind the most beautiful cars ever made. I'm glad you have one that runs properly and you can enjoy it. Get that judging business out of the way so you can take it to the Dairy Queen on a Saturday night and let them drool over it, I do.

Griz

Your statements are exactly why I asked the "experts" about restamping. My understanding is, a blank pad will cost you points, a restamped pad, declared as a restoration will at least receive some points if it is detectable. My original inclination was to leave it blank, but after listening to these people it became clear NCRS aim is to restore the car (everything in the car including the block) to the day it left the factory. So if it left the factory with a stamped pad...so be it. But I do agree its a 50/50 way of thinking. If I changed the engine from a 340 to a fuel injected car...yeah I have a problem doing that...but from what it was to what it was....I have no problem.

 

[61 Silver]

Your statements are exactly why I asked the "experts" about restamping. My understanding is, a blank pad will cost you points, a restamped pad, declared as a restoration will at least receive some points if it is detectable. My original inclination was to leave it blank, but after listening to these people it became clear NCRS aim is to restore the car (everything in the car including the block) to the day it left the factory. So if it left the factory with a stamped pad...so be it. But I do agree its a 50/50 way of thinking. If I changed the engine from a 340 to a fuel injected car...yeah I have a problem doing that...but from what it was to what it was....I have no problem.

Hi Collin

Sorry to hear that your original engine re-build did not cure the problem. I know from your postings that you put forth great efforts and money to save the original engine and to restore your 63. My personal feelings are that if a person has a block re-stamped and it is done to restore, and not to deceive for profit it should be 100% OK and part of the restoration process. I passed on a 61 fuelie that had what I believed to be a 1962 factory replacement block and now I wished that I had purchased that car. Have fun and enjoy that beautiful 63. I hope to see you at the Lime Rock Races this summer.

Ray

 

[Z28Canuck]

Sorry to hear about your original engine woes Collin. After all the time and expense you've invested specifically over the last year or so and to then have this happen. It is such a beautiful car and always will be, your work ,as always, is immaculate and your vette will continue to make us drool, original engine or not. We really hope this doesn't hold you back or hinder you in the Top Flight ratings especially when you've gone to such extents to do it right. Good luck and please keep us posted.
Doug

 

[55BlueVette]

Restamped Engine

I agree with the view that if it looks original, then it is correct. I went to a NCRS regional and attended a class on identifing correct stampings, and that's what he said. I have a 55, and they don't have engine serial numbers crossed referenced to vin numbers. I have the incorrect date on my block, but I also have another block that has all the correct numbers, except the engine pad identification code is 55F, instead of 55FG. He told me to add a G to the 55F.
Fenwick

 

[JohnGrawcock]

Thanks John...but its more of a relief then anything else...heck the engine looks just like it did at Funfest...you just can't tell the difference...I compared photos...you can not tell...my worry...I worked four years to get this car ready for TOP FLIGHT...will this affect me from reaching my goal...I hope not...

I'm no expert, but having seen your car it's hard to believe it wouldn't sail right through the judging.

 

[JohnZ]

If find this to be quite a revelation. In NCRS competion then numbers matching may not be a measure of originality, but a measure of the level of restoration. Griz

I'll say it again - NCRS Flight Judging isn't about "originality" - that's what the "Star/Bowtie" judging category is for. Flight Judging is about the "appearance" of meeting the Flight judging standard, which is the car as delivered after normal dealer preparation.

 

[Grizzly]

I'll say it again - NCRS Flight Judging isn't about "originality" - that's what the "Star/Bowtie" judging category is for. Flight Judging is about the "appearance" of meeting the Flight judging standard, which is the car as delivered after normal dealer preparation.

Your statement may be correct, but the popular perception is that if it's numbers matching then those are the original pieces. I question the wisdom of one of the top organizations in this field for encouraging this kind of alteration.

 

[BarryK]

Your statement may be correct, but the popular perception is that if it's numbers matching then those are the original pieces.

it's a popular MIS-conception that matching numbers means original. Matching numbers only means that they match and that can include restamped motors, or as NCRS refers to it, a restoration motor.

taken directly off the NCRS site:
"DEFINITIONS OF COUNTERFEIT vs. RESTORATION

NCRS does not consider the restoration or replacement of components as counterfeit as long as the intent is to restore the car to its former or original state as it left the factory.

To make this perfectly clear, read the following definitions from Webster's Dictionary and the accompanying examples.

RESTORE:

"To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state".

For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are not considered counterfeiting:

-Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint.

-Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior.

COUNTERFEIT:

"To make an imitation of something else with the intent to deceive or defraud".

For instance, the following would be examples of counterfeiting:

-Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color.

-Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color interior.

-Replacing the engine of an original small block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it appear to be an original big block engine.

-Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the block to make it appear to be original."

As you can see, putting in a "RESTORATION" motor is perfectly inline with NCRS rules. The goal in NCRS is simply to make the car APPEAR as close as possible to the way it was when delivered to the customer after leaving the factory (and after NORMAL dealer prep - dealer installed options do not count).
So, if the car left the factory with a base 327/250hp motor, replacing it with a 327 fuelie motor, or with a 427BB motor for example, would be considered counterfeit, but if the original motor is gone, installing a replacement 327/250hp "restoration" motor is perfectly acceptable as you are restoring the car to the condition is left the factory.

The term "numbers matching" is a very overused and MIS-used term which is very unfortunate.

I question the wisdom of one of the top organizations in this field for encouraging this kind of alteration.

There is nothing wrong with installing a restoration motor, what IS wrong are people installing conterfeit motors and than mis-using the term numbers matching to than sell the car for higher money than the car is truely worth such as installing a 427/435hp motor in a '67 that originally came equiped with a 327/300SB motor, restamping the block to pass it off as an original BB car.

 

[c5vetter]

the entire "number matching" FIASCO is just that! there is NO consensus on what the term really means - does it mean the stamp pad and VIN tag agree, well you can change those both, if you know what you are doing! does, the "restoration" (decking of a stamp pad to match VIN tag) truly mean numbers matching, as the vehicle left the factory!? could go on and on, and it is up to EACH one of us to decide "ethically and morally" what we believe it means. RANT OFF