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E4ME Carb ?'s, AGAIN

gedmeyer

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2003
Messages
316
Location
upstate New York
Corvette
former L81 owner!
I've been doing some thinking this winter and I was curious as to whether my carb can keep up with my modified motor. I'm sure it can flow enough air, but I'm a little wary about the whole computer control/fuel metering aspect of things. I read through UKPauls E4ME post from a year ago, but my motor is a little more modified than his.

Currently, I'm running a 383 stroker, stock heads, 270H Comp Cam, 9.5:1 CR, and stock intake. I also had the carburetor rebuilt at the time of the engine work. Along with this, I'm planning on doing side pipes within a month or so.

Any suggestions? I've taken a lot of flack from friends about keeping the stock carb/intake, but I feel that they can flow enough to suit my engine...provided that the computer/carb can meter the fuel well enough.

-gedmeyer
 
why not have the vette dyno'ed and find out???


bill:w

BTW I'll check with a friend of mine and see what he says!
 
This might be of some help. I do know that a 305 'Puterized carb will work on a warmed up 350. I would suspect that the same holds true for the E4me off the 350 and used on the 383. The site will give you a place to start. Put in the max RPM you will see for the engine, i.e. 6000, 6500.

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/tools/carb.html

Randy
 
Tim, checked with my buddy... the carb should have NO problem keeping up with your engine!!!:upthumbs

bill:w
 
That sounds good. I am still thinking about hooking up an a/f meter to verify that this is the case.

-gedmeyer
 
I've been playing around with the stock carb and computer for some time and here is my two cents worth. The computer keeps the A/F ratio at optimum efficiency during normal driving, but releases control at WOT (wide open throttle) and will flow all the air and fuel your secondaries will put out. The secondary air valve (the butterfly over the back two barrels) has a stop on the passenger side of its shaft. This stop limits the carb to around 600 cfm. By cutting or grinding off the stop until the air valve opens to a full 90 degrees, you can increase this to 750 cfm! This is an "on the car" mod that can be done in less than 5 minutes with a dremel tool (be careful about sparks near gas fumes). The next part is even easier. Edelbrock makes new replacement secondary metering rods and hangers for q-jets that can be ordered at your local auto parts store for pocket change. Replacing these takes only takes a few seconds with a screwdriver (while you still have the air filter off from doing the previous mod). Here are Edelbrock part numbers for rods and a hanger that will work great. PN 1951 (rods), PN 1963 (hanger). God bless, Cris
 
Thanks Cris. That's what I suspected concerning the Secondaries... I bet I can pick up a few HP by putting better rods/hanergers for my secondaries. I wonder how much the computer will allow for Fuel Trim modification before it stops trying to make the correct ratio? Since I am not getting a CEL, would it be fair to assumed that I'm getting a good A/F ratio during normal driving?

-gedmeyer
 
Sensei said:
I've been playing around with the stock carb and computer for some time and here is my two cents worth. The computer keeps the A/F ratio at optimum efficiency during normal driving, but releases control at WOT (wide open throttle) and will flow all the air and fuel your secondaries will put out. The secondary air valve (the butterfly over the back two barrels) has a stop on the passenger side of its shaft. This stop limits the carb to around 600 cfm. By cutting or grinding off the stop until the air valve opens to a full 90 degrees, you can increase this to 750 cfm! This is an "on the car" mod that can be done in less than 5 minutes with a dremel tool (be careful about sparks near gas fumes). The next part is even easier. Edelbrock makes new replacement secondary metering rods and hangers for q-jets that can be ordered at your local auto parts store for pocket change. Replacing these takes only takes a few seconds with a screwdriver (while you still have the air filter off from doing the previous mod). Here are Edelbrock part numbers for rods and a hanger that will work great. PN 1951 (rods), PN 1963 (hanger). God bless, Cris
correct about the secondary air valve stop not allowing full opening BUT also check to make sure that you are getting full throttle opening when you press down on the gas pedal. i have had to bend the gas pedal arm that fastened to the inside fire wall to get this to happen. make sure the primary side throttle arm goes against the stop on the carb when you have it floored.
 
Good call Sensi. I will have to check that out when I fire her up in the next week or two. Next weekends weather is supposed to be crappy, so I might hold off from the "big day" for another week. I guess it is only April! I just want to make sure that my computer controlled carb is not being a disadvantage!

-gedmeyer
 
Since the secondaries are sometimes involved in regular (computer controlled) driving mode, we have to be careful not to put in too rich of a rod / hanger combination or the computer will freak out because it is unable to maintain the proper A/F ratio. I don't know exactly where that limit is, but I have been using the combination I recomended, PN 1951 (rods), PN 1963 (hanger), with no problems and a noticable performance increase. God bless, Cris
 
gedmeyer said:
I've been doing some thinking this winter and I was curious as to whether my carb can keep up with my modified motor. I'm sure it can flow enough air, but I'm a little wary about the whole computer control/fuel metering aspect of things. I read through UKPauls E4ME post from a year ago, but my motor is a little more modified than his.

Currently, I'm running a 383 stroker, stock heads, 270H Comp Cam, 9.5:1 CR, and stock intake. I also had the carburetor rebuilt at the time of the engine work. Along with this, I'm planning on doing side pipes within a month or so.

Any suggestions? I've taken a lot of flack from friends about keeping the stock carb/intake, but I feel that they can flow enough to suit my engine...provided that the computer/carb can meter the fuel well enough.

-gedmeyer

Listen to your friends. They may know more than you think.

The carb, properly modified and tuned will probably work well, but you need a different intake manifold capible of higher and better quality airflow. Same is true with stock heads. You've wasted a lot of money on the 383 and the valve train because the stock intake and L48 heads are restrictive from the high-mid-range on up.
 
Hib- So you think I should swap out my intake and heads? I'm not sure if I can spend the money on heads this year, but an intake has possibilities. What intake would you suggest that would work with my carb and cam? I might consider replacing the heads next year.

-gedmeyer
 
Oh, I wouldn't call my 383 rebuild a waste... It's definitely not maximized for performance at this point, but I only had so much money when I did the rebuild. It was just a start...
 
Hello, L81'ers, a newbie checking in here... :w

A couple of thoughts on the issue of "whether my carb can keep up with my modified motor".

As long as the primaries of the E4ME can flow enough air by themselves to fill the engine volume at a rev level where you would consider the engine to be lightly loaded, say, cruising the freeway at 65 or 70 mph in top gear, then the CCC system will keep the A/F mix near optimal. After that, it's exactly what is posted above: you have to have your secondaries manually tuned to provide the right mixture.

A 383 operating at 2500 rpm, assuming 100% cylinder filling efficiency and ignoring heat losses, would ingest 277 cfm of air. Do the primaries of the E4ME flow that much? I don't know, but I think so. There's a trivia question for the FAQs!

As you continue to push the pedal, exposing the top of the carb to vacuum, the air all flows through the primaries until you reach the their limit of flow, more or less. Then, continuing to seek the path of least resistance, the vacuum opens the air valve above the primaries, and the air flow through the secondaries starts to pull fuel past the rods and into the venturis to be mixed with air.

It's pretty easy to see how it works at small throttle openings, where the primaries easily handle the flow, and it's also easy to see how it works at WOT, where the computer is bypassed, the primaries go to full rich, and both the primaries and secondaries are flowing near their limit. But the in between part gets a little fuzzy (to me, anyway).

In the original 350 L81, as you go from idle to WOT, slowly pressing down on the pedal, which would happen first: the secondaries would open due to vacuum, or the TPS would trigger the computer to be bypassed and the primaries would go full rich? I know they both happen, but which one is first?

It seems obvious to me that as you increase engine displacement, you increase the rate at which you expose the carb to vacuum by opening the throttle. In other words, since a 383 is about 10% bigger than a 350, you would be exposing the air valve over the secondaries to 10% more vacuum at any given degree of throttle opening. That tells me the secondaries will be opening sooner, i.e., at a smaller thottle opening, than they would on the 350. The question is, will the primaries already be at full rich, or not? Since they depend on the throttle opening as indicated by the TPS, the primaries will not go to full rich any sooner on a 383 than on a 350.

It seems possible that there could be a period there in which the secondaries were open but the computer was controlling the primaries, and that period would be bigger as the engine gets bigger. (Maybe that's common knowledgeto the rest of you guys, but I haven't thought about it before. Thanks for letting me ramble! ;) ) If that's true, then I expect there is some very real performance to be gained on the 383 or 406 by tuning secondaries, both in terms of the rods for mixture, and the air valve spring tension. And I'm thinking the only way to know is with the Air/Fuel meter on a dyno or dragstrip, checking to see if you are getting periods of leanness or richness as you accelerate under load.

If the above is all true as it relates to displacement changes, then wouldn't it also be true for other changes that increase the air through-put of the engine, such as bigger cams, better heads, better exhaust, etc.?

btw: I'm running a Summit crate engine, 355ci, rated at 330hp/390tq, with the E4ME carb and CCC system installed just as on the original L81, but with a Performer intake, headers, and dual exhaust. And it hauls. :)
 
Thanks for the thoughts Gator! I wish I had a scanner so that I could read the engine trim values. It's a bit of a mystery as to exactly what is going on. I think my mixture is close during average driving, but I just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can. I will probably go with those larger secondary rods sooner or later. They are simple and cheap enough where it's not a loss if they don't work out well.

An intake might be in the cards for me later in the summer. I'll have to see about that one (trying to save for a house). These cars will always be works in progress...

GATOR - BTW are you a member of the L81 Registry? I'm not sure if I saw a registration for you?

-gedmeyer
 
I am running a 406 with Crane XE278 and World Products SportsmanII's at 200cc and an Edelbrock Performer, Hedman Elite headers and true duals with no cats and the E4ME handles it just fine. Just remember to make sure you have decent engine vacuum and that you compression ratio isn't too high.

Gator81,
Nice to see you over here. (you may remember me as Dalannex) :beer I'm glad I'm not the only person telling the world that the E4ME is not garbage. :)


-Justin
 
gedmeyer said:
I've been doing some thinking this winter and I was curious as to whether my carb can keep up with my modified motor. I'm sure it can flow enough air, but I'm a little wary about the whole computer control/fuel metering aspect of things. I read through UKPauls E4ME post from a year ago, but my motor is a little more modified than his.

Currently, I'm running a 383 stroker, stock heads, 270H Comp Cam, 9.5:1 CR, and stock intake. I also had the carburetor rebuilt at the time of the engine work. Along with this, I'm planning on doing side pipes within a month or so.

Any suggestions? I've taken a lot of flack from friends about keeping the stock carb/intake, but I feel that they can flow enough to suit my engine...provided that the computer/carb can meter the fuel well enough.

-gedmeyer

The Dyno idea is good for you to obtain a reference point; however, the problem is not whether the E4ME carb flows enough for a 383, but whether the computer timing advance curve contributes enough timing signal to achieve the desired results. The Jet Performance Products could take all the information about your engine and your computer, and provide you with a replacement chip that will include a more agressive timing curve. About 2 years ago, they quoted me a price of $400 dollars. A little pricey, and I had no idea what the gain would be. I opted instead to use a pre-81 distributor to allow me fine tune the timing curve. Definetely, the dyno run will give you the best reference before adjusting or replacing the computer's imputs. On the other hand, I gave up a slight margin in reliability by disconnecting the computer (actually the computer still running, but I am not using an E4ME carb or the L81 distributor either). Nevertheless, since I enjoy tinkering with my car, the reliability factor is not a weighted one.

GerryLP:cool

edited: With the right quench set-up on your pistons at top dead center, the lesser the impact on the timing curve, I believe.
 
gedmeyer said:
Hib- So you think I should swap out my intake and heads? I'm not sure if I can spend the money on heads this year, but an intake has possibilities. What intake would you suggest that would work with my carb and cam? I might consider replacing the heads next year.

-gedmeyer

The intake question, with engines such as this, is always a difficult one becuase of hood clearance. My recomendation is to switch to an aftermarket, 73-78 style hood with a high power bulge then use the Edelbrock Performer RPM or RPM air gap manifold.

At minimum, you should have your stock heads ported, polished and fitted with 2.02/1.50 valves. A better choice would be an aftermarket head such as the AFR.

Your camshaft and compression are good choices already.
 
Just a couple of comments on this subject. I have seen noticable improvement buy richening up the secondary side on smog era Q Jets so the rods and hanger seem like a good place to start. Do a search of magazine articles on Q-Jet mods before grinding on your carb. I know that I read a couple years ago that a Q-Jet flows it's maximun with the secondary flap a little short of a perfect 90 degrees. Then it could have been the secondary butterflys that flowed best at a little less than 90 degrees. It's been a while and I don't remember for sure which. It would be hard to know exactly where to stop grinding without a flow bench in your garage but I'm sure you can get very close. Maybe Jet Performance could clue you in on this if they are willing to share info.

Tom
 
I went ahead and put the 1951/1963 edelbrock rod/hanger combination on my carb tonight. I didn't have time to take a test drive with the stock setup to compare with the new one...I feel like there might be a little more "umph" when i get on the gas. It's probably all in my head, but it almost sounds a little deeper at WOT. Maybe that's just what I want to "hear"! When I have some more free time, I'll swap do a test drive to compare them back to back. Man, I hate "having" to test WOT performance! :L Too bad I have to let off at 70-75!

-gedmeyer
 

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