help...car not starting, burning smell when jumping

[drkjr]

Damn, of all the luck...

Been trying to sell my '91 for a few months now... just had head gaskets done, new starter, battery, alternator, etc...spent lots of bucks on it... I FINALLY had somebody interested this weekend, VERY interested, he took it for a drive, I could tell he really liked it and was close to making an offer... I shut off the car for 10 min. while we talked $ and details, he goes to leave, I go to start the car, and the starter makes a funny noise, then I get nothing, not a sound...won't turn over...I figure the starter (which I'd just had rebuilt 2 months ago) went again, so i took it out, took it to the place who rebuilt it, they tested it...it is fine.

now the wierd part...

I decided to try to jump the battery for the hell of it...I hook up the cables, get into the vette to go to start it, and i smell a burning smell inside the car, just from hooking up the cables! Before I even tried to start it! I immediately jumped out and yanked the cables off the vette (and YES, i am SURE i hooked the cables up the right way, triple checked that)

Now I am stumped... any ideas about any of this? Obviously definitely something electrical, right ??? ( I guess not so obvious to me!)

I need to fix this ASAP, so that the guy will buy it!

Please help!

 

[SKIP780]

seems like the starter is bound up,power going in heats the windings and that is the smell. it will burn up if it cant turn.did they bench test or load test it?i think the starter is messed up. if its got oil in it that is death for it.

 

[Skant]

The connection from the battery to the starter is usually direct, unswitched, and unfused (it's too big to fuse)... so unless there are wires somewhere touching where they shouldn't be, that's really the only place that can burn.

So I'm guessing... if it starts smoking the moment you connect a live battery to it... either a) the cables are on backwards (you already checked) or b) the starter solenoid is welded.

It may have taken the battery with it on its way out, too.

Hope this helps.

- Skant

 

[drkjr]

my friend just checked the battery w/ a voltmeter, it read 12.2 or something, so i am guessing the battery is still ok... i tried to jump the starter w/ a screwdriver, it made a clicking / clunking sound, but didn't turn the car over...boy, I am really stumped with this, the burning smell just doesn't make sense to me!

 

[drkjr]

Skip, what's the difference between bench testing and load testing, and how do you do a load test?

Thanks...

 

[MBDiagMan]

It's hard to imagine that this is the problem after your explanation, but have you put a socket on the front of the engine and turned it to ensure that it is free?

Hopefully that is not the problem, but you should eliminate it.

Good luck,
Doc

 

[Robertwav1]

Check the battery voltage while cranking, this is the testing the battery under a load. Putting a voltmeter across it means nothing with no load.

 

[drkjr]

Where exactly would I put a socket on the front of the engine? There is a pulley w/ 4 bolt heads on it, should I do it on that? (obviously I am not too much of a mechanic)

Also, Robertwav1, if the car isn't cranking, will that still test the voltage under a load? and how can I test the starter under a load? The guy who rebuilt it did a bench test, even showed me it was working, but can the starter still be messed up and not work under a load? How can I tell?

Thanks guys for all the help...

 

[MBDiagMan]

There is a large bolt, probably 7/8 or 15/16 in the center of the crankshaft pulley. This is the large pulley at the bottom center of the front of the engine. You will need a long socket or possibly a short socket and short extension to reach it.

If you will turn on the headlights and watch them while hitting the starter switch for a second, you can determine the same thing as with a voltmeter across the battery. If the battery is fully charged and the lights dim WAY down when you hit the starter switch, then the starter is introducing a short condition to the battery which is pulling the voltage to nothing. Again, this would be caused by the starter locked up and totally unable to turn the engine. If not that it would be from some SHORT CIRCUIT condition at the starter.

Good luck,

 

[drkjr]

Thanks, we are getting a big snow storm now, so I am going to have to wait a few days to try those things, but I will keep you posted... thanks again for the advice!

Doug

 

[malc350]

Are you sure the wires are up to the job? This may not apply in the US so much but here in the UK most of the wires they sell to jump cars are real puny.

I've tried to jump big cars like vettes and jags before and the drain on the wires smoked 'em!

 

[malc350]

Just thought of something else

In the old days starters sometimes had shims to ensure correct clearance between the starter and flywheel. My vette doesn't have any but can you remember if there were any when you took the starter off?

Also check starter bolts are tight enough. If there's any slack the starter may "lock up" against the flywheel.

 

[drkjr]

didn't notice any shims, and the car was running fine for a couple of months, put the rebuilt starter in back in Jan, drove it for around 500 miles, started right up every time... figures, i finally have an interested buyer, and this happens, right in front of him!

Needless to say, haven't heard back from him since...

which wires did you mean, the jumper cables or the wires that connect the battery to the starter?

 

[taegdh]

I had a similar problem with an 87 Olds Cutlass Supreme, It turned out that I fried the switch as well as the starter. In the Olds the actual switch was down at the base of the column, and it was activated with a rod from the key/lock on the column. My quick reference, haynes chap 12 sec 8, indicates a similar placement. You might have fried that.
I cant remember how much, but it was less an a c-note.
You'll need the patience of a saint plus a contortionists ability to work all while standing on your head.
LOL,
taegdh

 

[malc350]

I meant the jumper wires - I have had some before that just aren't up to the job!

 

[Skant]

I think the big clue is that it smokes when another battery is hooked up to it even with the ignition off and starter not engaged (according to the original post).

It shouldn't do _that_.

In order for smoke to be produced, a large amount of current must be flowing. If the battery in the vette and jump vehicle are both good, little current will pass between them when they are connected.

If the smoke is coming from the jumper wires when the ignition in the car is turned off, that could indicate a bad battery. In this case, the bad battery is sucking down current from the healthy system... at a rate which might warm up or smoke the jumper wires or the battery itself.

A short could be present in the vette... the starter solenoid could be stuck with the current path connected... and thusly sucking down current and producing smoke that way. (Which was my original reply)

Pretty much any other electrical path is fused... and would blow a fuse before enough current was drawn to produce smoke.

The fact that your battery reads voltage across its terminals means little (and 12.2 volts is a little low, btw). It doesn't mean that the battery is good or charged. Just because the battery shows voltage doesn't mean it can produce sufficient current.

In case that doesn't make sense to you... consider this. A regular AAA (the really tiny skinny ones) battery is 1.5v. If you put 8 of these batteries together in series, they'd produce 12 volts across their contacts. But they couldn't start your car. It's 12 volts with no umph behind it at all.

A damaged or discharged car battery is the same way. It will probably still read a voltage near the full 12.7 volts, but there's no umph behind it.

In addition, the problem can be the connectors or wires to the battery. If a single tiny strand of metal was all that was connecting the battery to the rest of the car... low power items like lights and the computer might work... but high powered items (like the starter and to a lesser extent the power windows) would not. Again... the voltage is there, but not enough current. Not enough umph.


Also... I've found when jumping any sort of V8 vehicle... smaller engined vehicles do not have a beefy enough electrical system to jump it outright. Generally, the small jumping vehicle must stay connected for 10-15 minutes and revving its engine to produce enough juice to barely start the V8.

Of course, the other way around... using a V8 vehicle to jump any other car... works very easily. Your electrical system probably won't even notice the 'strain' of starting a 4 banger.

Hope this explanation helps.

- Skant

 

[drkjr]

thanks Skant...

If I take out the battery, and take it to Autozone to test, will that give me a good reading on whether or not it is in fact the battery?

 

[smook]

Let me jump in here.

Are you jumping it from the same car? Try a different car to jump yours.

Why are you jumping the car in the first place?

I suspect a short in your car.

Bill.

btw tough break when you are about to sell it.
Best of luck.

 

[silver 80]

Yes they should be able to do a battery load test.

 

[bill5674]

where in ny are you? could look at it for ya and save you some grief.