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Help to pass SoCal smog

roger longman

Well-known member
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
558
Location
southern california
Corvette
1977 c3 orange ! 1988 c4 kinda purple 1991 'race
My '88 was running badly at low revs in OD, so on advice, I plugged off the EGR, reconnected it for my last smog test and scraped through with MAX HO readings of 112 and 86. It's due again in 3 weeks and, I'm sure, it will fail. All other readings were low. What should I do ? Any help is greatly appreciated.....Roger.
 
Is the egr stuck open or is it getting vacuum at idle? You need to get a handle on that.
Make sure the t-stat is good & at the oem temp rating (195*). Get it nice 'n warm for the test.
Get a new pcv valve, replace any bad vacuum hoses. Change the oil if its due.
If you have to replace the egr valve, make sure the passsages are clean. That would be the time to clean the injectors.
 
My '88 was running badly at low revs in OD, so on advice, I plugged off the EGR, reconnected it for my last smog test and scraped through with MAX HO readings of 112 and 86. It's due again in 3 weeks and, I'm sure, it will fail. All other readings were low. What should I do ? Any help is greatly appreciated.....Roger.

Clean oil, clean EGR ports, and clean injectors.
Typically a new Cat will solve the immediate problem but in Ca thats a BIG deal now....($$$)

so, do the oil, test EGR for function, and run some quality injector (lucas or dura-lube, not the $3 stuff) cleaner thru a few days before testing and the day of the test run good fuel with some additional alcohol. Qt cans from home depot....just keep the fuel low when you do that so it can be burned out asap. We all know what alcohol does to some rubber over time and the quicker its out of there the better. Keep the temps up when time to test. You might want to visit a "test only" site if you have doubts. That way you can diagnose and it won;t go against you.

The alcohol helps burn cleaner and has the effect of lowering HC in many cases without effecting nox.
Also make sure your air valves are all connected and working. They feed the cat and the cat won;t burn well without that fresh air from the air dirvert valve/air pump.
 
Thanks Boom and Fire, Will check to the limit of my capabilities but, I rapidly get out of my depth with anything newer than a carbed car. She has new oil, T stat is good, PCV valve seems good, I'm having difficulty seeing if the EGR is working correctly (when connected) but I do want to get it functioning. I've just seen that Hib Halveson has some good information on this, anyone know how I can find it ?..Many thanks........Roger.
 
You cite high "HO" readings the last time you passed smog as what has you thinking you'll flunk this time.

What do you mean by "HO".

Smog check tests:

hydrocarbons (HC)
carbon monoxide (CO)
carbon dioxide (CO2)
oxides of nitrogen (NOx)

There is not exhaust emissions test for "HO".

What did your car test at and what are the maximums listed on your smog check results from last time.

If you suspect a problem with EGR, you'll never pass.

The OP states "I rapidly get out of my depth with anything newer than a carbed car." In that case, I suggest you find a service shop familiar with L98 Corvettes and have them inspect and test your exhaust emissions controls and repair as necessary before you go test again.

If you insist on DIY, because you suggest a problem with EGR, I recommend you get the 88 Factory Service Manual and troubleshoot the EGR system using the info in the manual.

Good luck.
 
The EGR itself is pretty easy....

find the end of the vac line that runs from the egr valve to the egr solenoid on the T-stat housing... engine off.

Get a small dental mirror (or mechanics that tilts/telescopes) and hold it so you can see under the egr valve bonnet. The valve should move freely with the least vacuum....you can suck on the hose enough to make the valve move. It don;t take much. If it moves, great. It should have a "bottom" so that you cannot keep ;pulling air.
If it is hard to move or stuck, it may need to be replaced. That bonnet is a big diaphram that multiplies the vac many times to increase its pulling power much like the brake booster...it'll move a lot and do a lot of work with little vacuum.

Now the solenoid...
99% of the time the vac source is bad...leaking or broken. This is "ported" vac thats only available at certain throttle positions so it must be plugged into the underside of the throttle body. The sticker on the radiator shroud shows the vac route.

IF you have to replace the EGR valve, be certain that you get the correct one. There are similar valves that operate differently. Positive back pressure and neg pressure. I think they used both over the yrs, so look at your specific yr model for the correct egr.

It might not hurt to get some throttle body or carb cleaner and spray it into the PCV hose with the engine running fast idle and into other places to clean out as much gunk as possible. Since the pcv and egr can cause a wet carbon build up inside the plenum and intake, that can add the the HC of the test result. The cleaner the intake the better/cleaner the burn. Use caution spraying so the MAF (if equipped) is not damaged. Personally, I would'nt spray the MAF to save my life. Too fragile, too expensive and too easy to work around it...The burn-off circuit takes care of the MAF housekeeping.
 
You cite high "HO" readings the last time you passed smog as what has you thinking you'll flunk this time.

What do you mean by "HO".

Smog check tests:

hydrocarbons (HC)
carbon monoxide (CO)
carbon dioxide (CO2)
oxides of nitrogen (NOx)

There is not exhaust emissions test for "HO".

What did your car test at and what are the maximums listed on your smog check results from last time.

If you suspect a problem with EGR, you'll never pass.

The OP states "I rapidly get out of my depth with anything newer than a carbed car." In that case, I suggest you find a service shop familiar with L98 Corvettes and have them inspect and test your exhaust emissions controls and repair as necessary before you go test again.

If you insist on DIY, because you suggest a problem with EGR, I recommend you get the 88 Factory Service Manual and troubleshoot the EGR system using the info in the manual.

Good luck.

Thanks Hib, Sorry I meant HC. readings were...At 15 mph/25 mph..112/74 . allowed 112/86..... CO. 0.02/0.01. allowed 0.72/0.60....NO.98/75 allowed 778/717. I suspect the EGR as, plugging it off cured the miss I was getting at low revs under load.......Roger.
 
The EGR itself is pretty easy....

find the end of the vac line that runs from the egr valve to the egr solenoid on the T-stat housing... engine off.

Get a small dental mirror (or mechanics that tilts/telescopes) and hold it so you can see under the egr valve bonnet. The valve should move freely with the least vacuum....you can suck on the hose enough to make the valve move. It don;t take much. If it moves, great. It should have a "bottom" so that you cannot keep ;pulling air.
If it is hard to move or stuck, it may need to be replaced. That bonnet is a big diaphram that multiplies the vac many times to increase its pulling power much like the brake booster...it'll move a lot and do a lot of work with little vacuum.

Now the solenoid...
99% of the time the vac source is bad...leaking or broken. This is "ported" vac thats only available at certain throttle positions so it must be plugged into the underside of the throttle body. The sticker on the radiator shroud shows the vac route.

IF you have to replace the EGR valve, be certain that you get the correct one. There are similar valves that operate differently. Positive back pressure and neg pressure. I think they used both over the yrs, so look at your specific yr model for the correct egr.

It might not hurt to get some throttle body or carb cleaner and spray it into the PCV hose with the engine running fast idle and into other places to clean out as much gunk as possible. Since the pcv and egr can cause a wet carbon build up inside the plenum and intake, that can add the the HC of the test result. The cleaner the intake the better/cleaner the burn. Use caution spraying so the MAF (if equipped) is not damaged. Personally, I would'nt spray the MAF to save my life. Too fragile, too expensive and too easy to work around it...The burn-off circuit takes care of the MAF housekeeping.

Thanks Boom, I'll be looking at that in the next couple of days......Roger.
 
Thanks Hib, Sorry I meant HC. readings were...At 15 mph/25 mph..112/74 . allowed 112/86..... CO. 0.02/0.01. allowed 0.72/0.60....NO.98/75 allowed 778/717. I suspect the EGR as, plugging it off cured the miss I was getting at low revs under load.......Roger.

Your post is difficult to read. Let me confirm...

HC tested at 112/74, maximum allowed 112/86
CO tested at .02/.01, maximum allowed .72/.60
NOx tested at 98/75, maximum allowed 778/717

Is this correct?
 
Your post is difficult to read. Let me confirm...

HC tested at 112/74, maximum allowed 112/86
CO tested at .02/.01, maximum allowed .72/.60
NOx tested at 98/75, maximum allowed 778/717

Is this correct?


Yes Hib, that is correct.....Roger.
 
The problem is high HC not high NOx. Your NOx numbers are way below the limit so if you don't find a problem with the valve leaking causing misfire, I'd rule out the EGR system.

The high HC could be misfire...it could also be leaking injectors or other problem causing the engine to run rich at idle and light throttle.

In what condition is the engine's fuel system?
Have you run the fuel pressure tests listed in the factory service manual?

In what condition is the engine's ignition system?

How many miles on the engine?
 
The problem is high HC not high NOx. Your NOx numbers are way below the limit so if you don't find a problem with the valve leaking causing misfire, I'd rule out the EGR system.

The high HC could be misfire...it could also be leaking injectors or other problem causing the engine to run rich at idle and light throttle.

In what condition is the engine's fuel system?
Have you run the fuel pressure tests listed in the factory service manual?

In what condition is the engine's ignition system?

How many miles on the engine?

Yes Hib, High HC is also correct.I did not refer to a high NOx count. The figure has gradually risen, from a reading of 52 and 37. in year 2000. to 112 and 86 in year 2007, then 112 and 74 in year 2009.
She idles at a steady 600 rpm when hot.
The injectors could be suspect, as I believe they are the originals but, I did the fuel pressure tests about 7 months ago and they were to spec.
I replaced plugs, wires , distributor cap and rotor.
127000 miles, no smoke doesn't burn oil in any significant quantity.
Could it be the evap cannister filter (I smell no raw fuel), the O2 sensor or the cat ?
I plan on putting in Bosch 3 injectors from John but, hoped to wait until next year......Roger.
 
The EGR itself is pretty easy....

find the end of the vac line that runs from the egr valve to the egr solenoid on the T-stat housing... engine off.

Get a small dental mirror (or mechanics that tilts/telescopes) and hold it so you can see under the egr valve bonnet. The valve should move freely with the least vacuum....you can suck on the hose enough to make the valve move. It don;t take much. If it moves, great. It should have a "bottom" so that you cannot keep ;pulling air.
If it is hard to move or stuck, it may need to be replaced. That bonnet is a big diaphram that multiplies the vac many times to increase its pulling power much like the brake booster...it'll move a lot and do a lot of work with little vacuum.

Now the solenoid...
99% of the time the vac source is bad...leaking or broken. This is "ported" vac thats only available at certain throttle positions so it must be plugged into the underside of the throttle body. The sticker on the radiator shroud shows the vac route.

IF you have to replace the EGR valve, be certain that you get the correct one. There are similar valves that operate differently. Positive back pressure and neg pressure. I think they used both over the yrs, so look at your specific yr model for the correct egr.

It might not hurt to get some throttle body or carb cleaner and spray it into the PCV hose with the engine running fast idle and into other places to clean out as much gunk as possible. Since the pcv and egr can cause a wet carbon build up inside the plenum and intake, that can add the the HC of the test result. The cleaner the intake the better/cleaner the burn. Use caution spraying so the MAF (if equipped) is not damaged. Personally, I would'nt spray the MAF to save my life. Too fragile, too expensive and too easy to work around it...The burn-off circuit takes care of the MAF housekeeping.


Hi Boom, EGR works but, I see it has a small hole and, and will not hold. I guess that is,at least, contributing to the 'stuttering' I get at low revs under load but is not the cause of the high HC reading. I'll be replacing it but, in the meantime it's going for the smog test tomorrow. I've 'Techroned' it and am keeping my fingers crossed.......Roger.
 
FAILED.

HC reading at 15mph 117 allowed 78

HC reading at 25mph 86 allowed 86

all other readings were way low.
The allowed HC's have been reduced from 112 to78 in the last 2 years! Could the small hole in the EGR diaphram be any part of the problem ?
But she's now showing a code...42. I know it's problems with the EST, would someone please tell me the best course of action...... roger.
 
I disconnected the battery, then went for a run tested again, no codes showing. A huge increase in fuel; consumption, down from av. 18 to 12 mpg. whilst EGR was reconnected. I'm thinking ignition and/or injectors now. I'll also be fitting a new EGR, Borg Warner or Duralast are my options. Opinions would be appreciated......Roger.
 
wow..the sudden use of more fuel is saying that something is seriously wrong....I'd guess injectors.

Regarding the EGR....just make sure that you get the correct type. There are pos back pressure or neg pressure...which YOUR car uses I do not know. The wrong type won;t operate properly. Check the vac line and erg solenoid connection.

Your HC at low speed are pretty high even with the new standard...That could mean loose inj that are not spraying well...could also mean a tired cat too. Since the HC gets better with higher RPM that suggest that its burning cleaner at speed, not so much at low rpm.
Too much fuel or too little air? Loose fuel inj could acct for that. If you have a fuel pressure gauge you might try a leak down test to see how long it takes the tension on the system to drop...that can indicate inj that are leaking. Its worth looking at the regulator as well. The fuel is going somewhere....from somewhere. Finding the answer to either question will help answer the other.
 
Hi Boom, Took off the EGR, the bottom part of the pintle was just flopping around ! How or why this could have happened I've no idea, it's never been touched, at least in the last 11 years that I've had it. Opinions appreciated, I'll be breaking into it, to see if there are any clues. Replaced the O2 sensor, though the original still looked good. Jon Banner talked me out of new injectors, saying the originals for an '88 were good, unlike other years, he also advised me to set the TPS to .48, which I did. Plugs, all good, as were wires and distributor. Tested fuel line leak down also good. That leaves the CAT, decided to chance it and go for the smog test. PASSED.... HC's were down from 117 and 86 to 78 (the limit) and 60.NO's were up from 106 and 85 to381 and 370. Over twice as high but well within test parameters. The car is difinitely running better and, I've got 2 years to save for a new CAT. Thanks to all for the advice.......Roger.
 
Hi all, With the HC's right on the limit for the Socal smog test, it certainly will not pass in 2 years time. Is there something, to which I've omitted to attend, or could it just be the cat ?

03/29/2000...HC's..meas...52/37.....CO..meas...0.01/0.03....NO..meas...682/661. %O2...3.1/1.

10/13/2011...HC's..meas...78/60.....CO..meas...0.18/0.08....NO..meas...381/370. %O2...1.4/1.3.

Any comments would be much appreciated......Roger.
 
Glad you finally passed.

Have some questions.

It wasn't clear whether or not you replaced the EGR valve or not after you found the pintle flopping around.

When you checked "fuel pressure leak down", is this the fuel pressure tests in the Factory Service Manual or some other type of test?

At 127,000 miles, a bad or failing cat is a possibility.
 
Hi Hib, Yes, I replaced the EGR as, what I took to be evidence of a hole in the diaphram, when using the vacuum/mirror method of deduction,I thought was causing the miss/stutter at low revs, under load in a high gear (the reason I originally blocked off the valve), was obviously,at least partly, the result of the broken pintle. Fuel pressure tested, static and idle to the figures given on CAC, as those in the FSM. I've not been able to test for a bad CAT......Roger.
 

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