Is the LS9 Engine the end of Performance as we know it?

[raybies]

Well Peter

We will have to agree to just disagree, even at 6.80 a gallon you are not going to find the greater American public looking to buy muscle cars.
A great majority of people in this country when fuel hit 4 dollars a gallon found themselves with very real and very difficult financial adjustments that needed to be made so they could feed their cars and continue to get to work. And that sir is not going to increase the viable demand needed for an automaker to tool up for performance auto's and large inefficient trucks.

 

[Marlar]

Golden

I have little doubt that high HP production cars will not be produced by large companies in the near future. I think it will take a few years, however, given the inertia inherent to large companies.

I think the street value of my '65 327 and my '06 Z06 will continue to appreciate. that's just the nature of collectibles.

Two golden ages of Vettes 40 years apart and the prospect of another 40 years says that 2050 will be another good era?

 

[1962BRT]

It all depends how they write the laws

In the state of Maryland where cars from about 1975 to present have to have emissions testing in many areas, the older non OBDII cars, such as my 1986 Corvette have to do the treadmill test. In the case of a 400, 600,or even 1000 horsepower vehicle, the loading and resistance is based upon either the vehicle weight or some other load. The test never gets to, or is not designed to be full output. As a result, the maximum horsepower is not an issue, only the test required horsepower. Efficiency gains due to less engine and drivetrain loss will decrease the "Carbon Footprint" (in tree hugger slang.)

There is still plenty of room from engine and drivetrain efficiency gains, which give free horsepower and mileage. My generation 1 small block pick up gets about 12mpg thanks to the engine friction (primarily valve train)and the 4:10 rear end. Without the pushrods, it takes about 5-10 foot-pounds to turn over the engine, with the valve train in operation condition it takes about 50 foot pounds to turn it over, which is about average. This relates to 50 horsepower at about 5200 rpms, or about 30 at highway speed, assuming no additional rotational friction increase with increasing engine RPM's (not a good assumption.)

The motorcycle crowd has some neat ways of decreasing engine resistance that could be incorporated at an additional cost to the venerable Chevy V8. This would make everyone but the Ford and Mopar people happy. :L

 

[motorman]

Bob Lutz seems to think the horsepower wars are fading fast.


"You'll see some V-8s in trucks and high performance cars in the future, but they'll be priced to discourage people from buying them," assures Lutz when talking about the showroom of the future. But "in 5 to 10 years, the 4-cylinder will be the predominant engine."

100 to 1 GM Odds are the No. 1 U.S. automaker will be around for a while – slimmer but nimble enough to turn on a global dime - Chicago Tribune

with the new CAFE std GM will have to give away "volts" to sell anything but 4 cylinder engines. if calif gets its way the 2 cylinder 600 cc honda car of the 60s will return.

 

[Cruzen]

Why worry about GM stepping back from performance. Several people have mentioned the 60’s-70’s. First, HP did not drop much between 1970 and 1972. What changed was the way the manufactures reported HP. We went from BHP to rear wheel HP which always made more sense and is a better reflection of what a vehicle can really do. The ¼ mile times of the 1972 cars were not that much different than the 1970 cars. Second those big block cars of which I had six, were a pain in the ass. With the street tires that were available at the time you could not get a big block hooked up. I drove my cars around town with slicks much of the time. I saw more small block cars beating big blocks off the line. My small block Nova hooked up better than my team mates big block Camaro and while his top speed was higher, the ¼ mile trap times were similar.

Once you get past all that warm fuzzy nostalgia feeling about the 60’s-70’s, may I point out that the current standard Corvette achieves performance that was only dreamed about in the 60’s-70’s and what is achieved by the Z06 or ZR1 exceeds what the race prepared cars were achieving during those times. If you buy any of these cars today and put 8-10k miles per year on them, actually most Vette’s see about 5-8K per year, the car will last you twelve to twenty years. Based on the average age I see C5 and C6 Corvette owners, at that point most will be trading their Vettes for walkers so what’s the problem. Be thankful that you were able to get in on this round of performance and enjoy it while it lasts.

Finally if history repeats itself considering that a 427 Big Block Corvette that originally sold for around $5k now sells for between 65 and 100K consider what today’s Corvette’s will sell for to people who want to experience the last round of performance vehicles. That will be a nice legacy to leave your grand kids who by then will be driving electric powered cars that will smoke yer Vette like a 1970’s Vega.

The trip is short,
Enjoy the ride,
Denny

 

[lt4 gs]

The fact is that gasoline prices will -- no, cannot -- are not able -- to continue to rise beyond a reasonable level... likely around $6.80 per gallon.

As we recently learned empirically, people buy less gasoline as the price increases. Several weeks ago gas went to about $4.50 here and people bought less.

At some higher price they will buy even less. At some price point there will be excess gasoline and oil product supplies.

That will force the price downward.

Americans would do themselves a service to remember that Indonesia, Venezuela, the African and Middle eastern nations must sell oil because, to paraphrase one of our leaders, "They are addicted to oil... money".

Those nations have commitments to their people and the ruling demagogues enjoying bullying the free (productive) Western Civilization nations.

Hey guys, this negative outlook is destructive. Let's each hope for the real changes that science can provide in a free USA.

Cars will use lighter materials, more energy will extracted from a given amount of gas, and small-scaled ZR1-style engines will provide the MPG with good power using V8, V6 and 4 cylinder engines. Lower gas usage, more HP per pound, lighter cars, and more maneuverability for our C7s and C8s.

the administration is destructive......it'll all depend how you folks vote in 2k10........that said.......everything at the general .....as they approach filing for restructure......is on the table...to and include everything corvette and camaro........imho of course

 

[Hib Halverson]

Why worry about GM stepping back from performance. Several people have mentioned the 60’s-70’s. First, HP did not drop much between 1970 and 1972. What changed was the way the manufactures reported HP. We went from BHP to rear wheel HP which always made more sense and is a better reflection of what a vehicle can really do. (snip

I thought it best that we all understand what really happened between 1970 and 1972 .

First, there was a significant horsepower decrease, across the board when GM lowered compression for MY71.

In 1972, then the power rating system changed, it went from gross power to SAE net power but...it did not go to rear wheel power. Engines have never been factory-rated at the rear wheels.

In general, gross power was obtained with the engine on an engine dyno, with no accessories, fuel and spark calibrations optimized for best performance, high octane "non-pump" gasoline, headers and open exhaust, cold intake air.

In general, SAE net power was obtained with the engine on an engine dyno with all accessories installed and operating, fuel and spark calibrations at production specs, pump gasoline, stock exhaust manifolds and a full street-legal exhaust system and intake air temperature typical of everyday conditions.

This made for a big decrease in ratings but not much of a change in real-world performance of cars in production trim.

 

[njlouc]

Today's Vette - any of them has some real performance. As mentioned it is way better than anyone imagined in the 60's.
That said, like the 70's they said that there will NEVER be another V8!!
......or convertible!! remember that stuff??
Ok we know that didnt happen but it did for a few years. The engines in the 70's were basically air pumps. They got miserable gas mileage and low power .... and were Very heavy. then the cat-converter came in and we got better designs.
NOW the situation is somewhat similar, but it seems that it is larger in scope.
I agree that real performance that we now know will be strictly boutique. Mass production performance is fading fast and this time it may stay that way. Also how terrible would it be if "all" we could get was an LS9??
But good news there are some great engineers out there and I am confident that they will come to the rescue if given the chance.

 

[catbert]

I just got back from Europe, and can see what the future looks like for us. After filling up my Skoda mini-crossover 4 banger for almost $95.00, I had an epiphany.

Eventually, we will do what the European do when gas gets to the point of being too expensive to "waste." We will tool around in our gas sipping economy cars, and drive our SUVs and hotrods on weekends and special occasions. You see very few European supercars on the hiway during the week, but on the weekend, you'd better STAY in the slow lane if you are driving under 160 kph, cuz' the boys are out playing.

 

[Marlar]

I agree. Of course my old '92 Buick only gets 30 mpg on the road, so what can I can today to replace it with? Maybe a base Vette?

 

[Stuart]

Is the LS9 Engine the end of Performance as we know it? Yes, but it's not the end of high performance. A few of you mentioned electric propulsion in prior posts and I am beginning to think that may be what the future looks like.
GM is investing heavily in the Volt. I saw they just opened a new battery lab. Could the next super high performance Chevy be electric?
Chevy has used the Corvette to showcase new technology so maybe we could see a Volt like powertrain appear in a future Vette. Electric propulsion works well in the Tesla Roadster.
I don't think that would be too bad. Different, yes, but not necessarily bad. Yes we would lose the V8 rumble but I hear the electrics can put down some wicked torque.

 

[65-to-00]

Tooooooooooooo easy!

The Gubberment will just mandate that instead of the draft horse .... the old standard measure for horse power; they will now use smaller horses.

Stuff like Koda, Overo, Shetland, Duns ...... ya' know ..... tiny itty bitty horses!



Actually, not as funny since as a former Gubberment Stooge ..... I know how they think and that scenario is not impossible. ;squint::ugh

 

[Victory Red C6]

Just my $0.02.

That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced. ~ Scientific American, June 2, 1909. [This one is right up there with the former chairman of IBM saying that the world would only need two or three computers at most.].

 

[Hib Halverson]

Is the LS9 Engine the end of Performance as we know it? Yes, but it's not the end of high performance.

Admittedly "end" is subjective, but the fact remains that the current ZR-1 is the zenith of Corvette performance. The new CAFE and possible direct regulation of CO2 will kill the LS7 and the LS9. Yes, the future will have a "high-performance" sports car branded "Corvette" in the product line for the forseeable future but the term "high-performance" will be relative. The Corvette past 2010 will have "high-peformance" but not as "high" as before, ie: the base engine might be a 375 hp 5.3L rather than a 430 hp 6.2L. Optional could be a 450 hp supercharged 5.3.

GM is investing heavily in the Volt. I saw they just opened a new battery lab. Could the next super high performance Chevy be electric?

Possibly but unlikely. First, the Chevy Volt is not an electric vehicle. It is a gas/electric hybrid which can be plugged-in to charge it batteries. It's one big difference is that it uses a series-hybrid powertrain rather than a parallel-hybrid powertrain which has been common in hybrids up to now.

Chevy has used the Corvette to showcase new technology so maybe we could see a Volt like powertrain appear in a future Vette. Electric propulsion works well in the Tesla Roadster.

Says who?
The Tesla is an interesting toy for liberal greens but is it proof that "electric works well?"
Not.
It's range is too short. It's charge time is too long (unless you run 440V service into your house) and it's price $100,000 or so is too high. For electric hi-po sports cars to become legitimate, they need to sell for the same price as the current base Corvette and offer similar performance.
I don't think that would be too bad.

Yes we would lose the V8 rumble but I hear the electrics can put down some wicked torque.

Electric motors make significant torque at zero rpm so, yeah, when you jump on the gas, er...the volts, you'll spin the tires big time.

 

[Ultraworld]

I think the trend towards smaller twin turbo motors with an economy tune & performance tune. I have been playing with the tune in my ZR1 and I have achieved 29hwy & city. It puts it down on HP, but the original tune is only a flash programing away. I'm working on being able to switch between tunes at engine start up. I really think small displacement + twin turbos is the next step. In the 70's, it was dismal fuel economy & pollution that killed the muscle cars. We don't have that issue now, getting more MPG is a lot easier now that it was 35yrs ago.

 

[Mike G]

Small Turbo Engines

BMW is all in it with turbo engines now. They have this 4.4 ( 270 cu.in.) mill with 2 twin-scroll turbos in the V that blasts out 555hp and 500 Ft.Lbs. Horrific complexity but a nice example of what's possible. For our beloved small block Chevy, just greater combustion efficiency should be able to keep it going in the face of the bossy feds. They should stay busy trying to repair the destruction to our economy that Wall St has caused and leave the power production to CHEVY!!!

 

[Ultraworld]

BMW is all in it with turbo engines now. They have this 4.4 ( 270 cu.in.) mill with 2 twin-scroll turbos in the V that blasts out 555hp and 500 Ft.Lbs. Horrific complexity but a nice example of what's possible. For our beloved small block Chevy, just greater combustion efficiency should be able to keep it going in the face of the bossy feds. They should stay busy trying to repair the destruction to our economy that Wall St has caused and leave the power production to CHEVY!!!

I think BMW is ahead of the curve. Obama is going to raise CAFE to 36mpg by 2016.

 

[Hib Halverson]

I think BMW is ahead of the curve.

Yeah, they are...well...maybe the marketing curve.

Obama is going to raise CAFE to 36mpg by 2016.

In the end, that will matter little. After we're done paying for the health care "plan" Pres. Obama and Spkr. Pelosi want, we'll never be able to afford a Corvette, even if its gas mileage is twice that.

 

[njlouc]

It all goes to show that the vette is toast.
Obama told the UN today that the USA is (mostly) responsible for global destruction due to our nasty wasteful ways. BTW it was also mentioned that China is one of if not THE cleanest!! Do you think that this is the attitude that will keep uber power cars around. If they achieve GREAT mpg they will find other ways to eliminate them. I can see in Obama's third term that the Smart car will be the way to go and will receive rebates from the govt. Indy 500 will be mostly a soap box derby.
A performance car will be like a dusenberg was in the 30's.

Warm up the dominoes!!

 

[Hib Halverson]

BMW is all in it with turbo engines now. They have this 4.4 ( 270 cu.in.) mill with 2 twin-scroll turbos in the V that blasts out 555hp and 500 Ft.Lbs. Horrific complexity but a nice example of what's possible. For our beloved small block Chevy, just greater combustion efficiency should be able to keep it going in the face of the bossy feds. They should stay busy trying to repair the destruction to our economy that Wall St has caused and leave the power production to CHEVY!!!

The Germans seem to think there's no point in making engines simple as long as you can make them "horrifically complex" then hide your poor reliability behind a "free" maintenance plan. BMWs are the cars of choice for far-left-liberal enviros, not mainstream Americans.

My fearless forecast?

By 2012 or '13 Corvette power will be a 7000 rpm, 5.3L, supercharged, direct injection, AFM, "Gen 5" V8 at about 450 hp. it will meet emissions standards of that period and will meet CAFE, ie: no guzzler tax.