Just Say "No" To E15

[Vettehead Mikey]

Mikey and I both go back a long way on forums so I feel confident in saying he is a skeptic who isn't trying to kick anyone in the shins.

From what I've read in this thread, I would say Mikey....

• doesn't like E15 or other 'alternative' fuels for today's vehicles
  
• doesn't think highly of snake oil OR pour-in additives
• doesn't think highly of media who can't be bothered to research before they start scare-mongering
• doesn't figure the fuel companies are going to get much traction on ethanol added fuels without significant changes in both engine design AND consumer preferences

but I stand to be corrected.

-Mac

You know me better than my own mother.

Daddy? Is that you? otfl

 

[Mac]

You know me better than my own mother.

Daddy? Is that you? otfl

Don't get me started on the mother jokes... :dancenaughty

-Mac

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Don't get me started on the mother jokes... :dancenaughty

-Mac

Aw c'mon, you know you wanna. Just a few............

 

[Mac]

Aw c'mon, you know you wanna. Just a few............

That's what your momma said... :eek

-Mac

 

[Hib Halverson]

Sometimes I forget that Mac and Mikey are in Canada.

Do the environmental authorities in Canada mandate blended gasolines in places with bad air quality like they do in the states?

 

[c4c5specialist]

e10/e15/e85, EW

HI there,

Lets look at this from a technician point of view.

Aside from the mutual understanding that ethanol in any form reduces fuel mileage and increases the corrosive nature of the fuel inside your fuel supply system, there are other factors that need to be addressed.

Ethanol mixing is far from accurate. Using an accurate fuel composition tester here in Ct, I have tested fuels that are supposed E10 and see concentrations as low as 6% and as HIGH as 27%. The higher the % of alcohol, the greater the driveability concerns and problems with power if your vehicle is NOT FLEX FUEL EQUIPPED.

E85 flex fuel vehicles can compensate and run the E85 due to a number of reasons. Redesigned fuel pipes, pumps, injectors are only PART of the story. Completely redesigned programming of the engine control module to DETERMINE ethanol content is also part of it. And now, with the inaccuracies of that system, they are now coming back with composition sensors as part of the fuel systems because of what they are dealing with.

And if you EVER try to put ethanol in pre 1997 Corvette, it can actually short out fuel injectors due to the corrosive nature of the fuel flowing past injector electrical windings. This is for Crossfire, L98, and Multec 1 design injectors.

Nevermind the fact that with the necessary fuel filters that absorb water, and the fact that ethanol encapsulates water, this just creates MORE issues.

Is there a clear cut solution, I dont think so. However, the advent of direct fuel injection in the LT1 is a start for Corvette to be able to use E15 and more. But as far as GM vehicles, they state VERY CLEARLY.
However, ethanol blends greater than E 10 should not be used in GM vehicles that do not have a flex fuel designation as they are not designed and certified to run on gasoline consisting of more than 10 percent ethanol-blend volume to avoid any unintended consequences, as per their Owner Manual.

Allthebest, Paul

 

[Mac]

Sometimes I forget that Mac and Mikey are in Canada.

Do the environmental authorities in Canada mandate blended gasolines in places with bad air quality like they do in the states?

It's funny... In some regards, Canada is highly regulated. In others, particularly this area, there is very little, if any, regulation.

If one believes the enviro-wackos, Canada's federal government is lagging behind the world on most forms of regulations to address emissions. We adopted our form of Tier 1 regulations in 1997 and Tier 2 in 2004 but there haven't been any draconian regulations. At the local level, only one province has vehicle emissions regulations... and that was mainly to support a clean air program called "Air Care" in the Fraser Valley as air quality was poor in Vancouver.

-Mac

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Sometimes I forget that Mac and Mikey are in Canada.

Do the environmental authorities in Canada mandate blended gasolines in places with bad air quality like they do in the states?

Hib-

Not sure about the rest of Canada, but we've had E10 gas for over 20 years in Eastern Canada where Mac and I are, although it was marketed as gasahol back then. I clearly remember the signboards at the MacEwen gas stations that showed an ear of corn being shoved in the tank. Can't find a picture of that, but here's the modern equivalent




I've used E10 in every vehicle including the Corvette since the early 90s and have not had one actual problem. I don't know of anybody that has had a problem either, including any of the guys in my NCRS chapter who are not known to put lots of miles on their cars. My summer toys get stored for 6 months a year over the winter, my winter toys 6 months a year over the summer. I use no additives of any type. The ONLY possible issue was one of the chainsaws needed a new primer bulb as the old one went stiff, but it was ten years old anyway.

It's pretty hard to agree with the sky is falling predictions or the need to use additives to keep bad things from happening.

 

[tankman]

Hib-

Not sure about the rest of Canada, but we've had E10 gas for over 20 years in Eastern Canada where Mac and I are, although it was marketed as gasahol back then. I clearly remember the signboards at the MacEwen gas stations that showed an ear of corn being shoved in the tank. Can't find a picture of that, but here's the modern equivalent



I've used E10 in every vehicle including the Corvette since the early 90s and have not had one actual problem. I don't know of anybody that has had a problem either, including any of the guys in my NCRS chapter who are not known to put lots of miles on their cars. My summer toys get stored for 6 months a year over the winter, my winter toys 6 months a year over the summer. I use no additives of any type. The ONLY possible issue was one of the chainsaws needed a new primer bulb as the old one went stiff, but it was ten years old anyway.

It's pretty hard to agree with the sky is falling predictions or the need to use additives to keep bad things from happening.

Yea, I hate it when my bulb goes stiff!!!!

otfl

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

At the local level, only one province has vehicle emissions regulations... and that was mainly to support a clean air program called "Air Care" in the Fraser Valley as air quality was poor in Vancouver.

-Mac

On the other hand, I've been dealing with Ontario's 'drive clean' program and it's wacko testing methods. This is to get the daily beaters certified, not the Corvette. The approval system used till just recently measured actual tailpipe emissions. The new system in place now couldn't care less about that, and the technician simply plugs into the OBD2 port and looks for current fault codes, evidence that codes had been deleted or confirmation that all is well. The problem is that if any repair has been done to ready the car for the test and demonstrate that it's in top shape, this obviously can been seen in the computer, and gives you an automatic fail.

Nice.

In my case, I had the classic loose gas cap scenario (P0456) which was easily fixed but gave me a fail as the technician reset all the codes. I had to do a 40KM drive around the countryside TWICE to get the car to complete the self tests and give the required P1111 'all is well signal'. What waste..................

 

[timfitz63]

... And if you EVER try to put ethanol in pre 1997 Corvette, it can actually short out fuel injectors due to the corrosive nature of the fuel flowing past injector electrical windings. This is for Crossfire, L98, and Multec 1 design injectors...

Paul:

Since you list the 5.7L L98 TPI engine here, could this same problem affect the 5.0L LB9 TPI engine used in the GM F-Bodies? I'm having issues with my '89 Firebird Formula, and long story short, I'm starting to suspect a fuel delivery problem (fuel pump and/or injectors).

 

[Hib Halverson]

On the other hand, I've been dealing with Ontario's 'drive clean' program and it's wacko testing methods. This is to get the daily beaters certified, not the Corvette. The approval system used till just recently measured actual tailpipe emissions. The new system in place now couldn't care less about that, and the technician simply plugs into the OBD2 port and looks for current fault codes, evidence that codes had been deleted or confirmation that all is well. The problem is that if any repair has been done to ready the car for the test and demonstrate that it's in top shape, this obviously can been seen in the computer, and gives you an automatic fail.

Nice.

Down here in the States, that's the system California is going to for many newer cars. No five-gas readings just connection to the MIL but the "smog machine" is not only looking at any DTCs and readiness flags, it's also looking at global OBD2 serial data.

In my case, I had the classic loose gas cap scenario (P0456) which was easily fixed but gave me a fail as the technician reset all the codes. I had to do a 40KM drive around the countryside TWICE to get the car to complete the self tests and give the required P1111 'all is well signal'. What waste..................

Common problem down here.

When I need to set the flags prior to a test, I use the drive-cycle in the Service Manual. I can get it done reasonably quick, if I can start cold.

 

[c4c5specialist]

paul:

Since you list the 5.7l l98 tpi engine here, could this same problem affect the 5.0l lb9 tpi engine used in the gm f-bodies? I'm having issues with my '89 firebird formula, and long story short, i'm starting to suspect a fuel delivery problem (fuel pump and/or injectors).

absolutely!!!!!!

 

[timfitz63]

absolutely!!!!!!

Outstanding... Well, at least I have something concrete to chase now; up to this point, it's all been guess-work and speculation as to where the problem may lie... And so far, the guessers have been wrong...

 

[c4c5specialist]

Outstanding... Well, at least I have something concrete to chase now; up to this point, it's all been guess-work and speculation as to where the problem may lie... And so far, the guessers have been wrong...

HI there,

Start with checking your resistance on your fuel injectors. 16.5 ohms before running vehicle when cold.

Allthebest, Paul

 

[timfitz63]

HI there,

Start with checking your resistance on your fuel injectors. 16.5 ohms before running vehicle when cold.

Allthebest, Paul

Thanks, Paul! Will do! I seem to remember stumbling across a diagnostic procedure on a forum somewhere, but if you've got a good summary on how to do that, it'll save me a bit of searching.

 

[timfitz63]

... And if you EVER try to put ethanol in pre 1997 Corvette, it can actually short out fuel injectors due to the corrosive nature of the fuel flowing past injector electrical windings. This is for Crossfire, L98, and Multec 1 design injectors...

Well, Paul, I think you pointed me in the right direction with my Firebird... I was back in San Antonio during the past week, and managed to find a half hour or so to check the resistance on the fuel injectors. And I've uncovered at least one problem with the car: I've got one injector that's bad, one borderline, and two more that are probably just starting to fail... About half the engine isn't running right due to a fuel supply problem...

The failed injector measured 7.9 ohms -- about half of the 16 ohm specification; one was 14.7 ohms (barely in +/- 10% spec. tolerance, but more than 0.5 ohms difference from the 'good' injectors that read ~16.2 ohms); and two more were in the low 15 ohm range (again, more than 0.5 ohms difference from the 'good' injectors). These are the original, 1989-vintage injectors, by the way...

So, I'm looking at replacing all of the injectors; I figure the four 'good' ones can't be very long for this world... Is this task (fuel injector replacement) a relatively simple DIY or best left to the professionals? And any suggestions on what injectors with which to replace these originals?