Need input and advice on motor rebuild

[Moonunit 451]

Need input and advice on motor rebuild/Next Chapter

I got my motor out about a week ago, didn't find anything catastophic. I can't figure out what was causing the noises I was hearing. I hope it wasn't the tranny after all this. The bearings and crank were marred up some and it looks like the oil rings probly just got tired. In addition to #8 which had been fouling badly, when i pulled the plugs #'s 4 and 6 were also pretty fouled. Everything else looked pretty good. There was some copper dust in the bottom of the oil pan.
The bearings were all silver, no copper

I've been doing some rudimentary research on parts. I've learned that it's gonna cost more than I thought, no matter what. I'm trying to figure out what to do to get the best I can for the least cost. I've got ported polished stock cast heads, comp cams 1.6 rocker rollers, 219 LPE roller cam, Eagle forged rods, and a SR with TPIS bigmouth intake comming (still waithing to finalize transaction). I've also got a line on some used 10:1 CR flat top forged pistons, ? with forged rods for a very good price. These are for a .30 over bore.

This car will be a daily driver and I plan to quarter mile some, do some road track time occasionally and maybe a little autocross now and then. I'll probably keep it normally aspirated. It'll be driven aggressively frequently. I plan to deck the block and balance the rotating assembly. I'm not planning any major transmition or rear end changes at this time.

Questions at this point.

1. I know no one would probably recommend used parts, but is there a way to
test for the integraty of the pistons, rods, and block that would reasonably
confirm their worthiness?

2. I've found a four bolt main block casting #3970010. I've been told these
are good blocks to build. From waht I can determine this is a 69 to 80 GM
bulid. Should I use it instead of my stock casting 1408858 2 bolt main?
Unfortunately the 4 bolt has a cast crank as well, so no luck there.

3. Should I really be that concerned with using a forged crank (or other parts)
and what about mixing forged and cast parts?

4. What is required to be done to the block to install the roller cam?


I'd appreciate any input, keeping in mind that I hope not to spend more than about $2,500 to 3,000 total. Let's say that with what I've already mentioned I'm already in over $1,500 and I still need all the standard stuff for a rebuild and the required machine work that I'll probably have to pay retail for. The R&R and all labor I can reasonably do are on me. I also have some aquaintances who do some performance engine work, but I don't know how much help I'll receive from those sources yet.

 

[Ken]

Man, you've certainly got a plan laid out ahead of time. Congratulations, that's half the battle!

Questions at this point.

1. I know no one would probably recommend used parts, but is there a way to test for the integraty of the pistons, rods, and block that would reasonably confirm their worthiness?

Magnafluxing is one way of testing metals. Read these pieces for more information regarding Cleaning & checking engine blocks, Cylinder head crack check, and Technical Details Concerning Use of the Magne-Gage®.

2. I've found a four bolt main block casting #3970010. I've been told these are good blocks to build. From what I can determine this is a 69 to 80 GM bulid. Should I use it instead of my stock casting 1408858 2 bolt main? Unfortunately the 4 bolt has a cast crank as well, so no luck there.

Many people think four-bolt main engines are stronger than their two-bolt counterparts, but the two-bolts actually have more material than the four-bolt block. That is, less material is removed in the manufacturing process. A two-bolt also gives you the option installing four-bolt splayed main caps, which are definitely the strongest combination possible.

Keep in mind there are significant machine shop costs involved when using this method of main cap retention. If you do plan to exceed 400hp with a small block, or run a 600hp big block, you should use a four bolt, preferably splayed, block.

3. Should I really be that concerned with using a forged crank (or other parts) and what about mixing forged and cast parts?

I guess it depends on how fast you plan on spinning it. I would not build an engine without a forged piece. But that's just me.

4. What is required to be done to the block to install the roller cam?

Next person up! :L

 

[Eagle85C4]

You may save yourself some time and trouble by looking at... www.paceparts.com

They have a L-98 short block , new ready to go fo about 1300.00 or they got a sweet TBI motor from a caprice with roller cam running 300 hp stock, brand new motor for 1500.00. My understanding is that you can change the cam on that one and get some serious HP. I would think you could just drop the short block in then take your time and rebuild the stock motor for later or keep it around for numbers matching if you ever sell the car.

 

[Moonunit 451]

Thanks very much for the replies guys. I got tied up for the last couple days Ken and haven't had a chance to get to those articles yet, but I will as soon as I can. Thanks for your encouragement and clarification on some of my questions. I was aware of splaying and suspected it would be expensive. Ya, I've got a kind of a plan, or maybe it's a pipe dream:eyerole , I don't know, I'm just not willing to go into big debt to get there. This isn't the time to get in some kind of a hurry. I may just have to muddle through and get some money together and be more patient than I care to be. It's gotta be done right, preferably the first time.

Eagle thanks for your input too . I went to the Paceparts website, been there before, many times, looking--drooling, but not spending--- yet. I gotta say that the Caprice motor sounds really interesting. It took me a while, but I finally found it there. Unfortunately it doesn't give any real description on the website, oter than what you mentioned. Do you have any further information on the internals, or maybe I just need to call them. Man I oughta get my speakers out and send em to you for an overhaul while the beast is down.

I got a couple other questions to throw out into the mess. I ran ito a guy who claims to have an LT4 motor with 32,000 mi on it complete with computer and (wiring harness I think) for $3500. That's probably about the HP and torque range I'd like to get to and the advanced electronics would be great too, except I'm not excited about the opti. Would this be an incredibly difficult retro fit?

Another thing I came across was a guy in Michigan who got hit and they may total his 87. The car has 54,000 mi. on it and he claims it has been maticulously cared for. What do you suppose a fair price would be for the motor? I'll know if it's available later this week. There are no mods, and I don't think there would be any reason to need the computer. Is that right?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful responses folks.

 

[Moonunit 451]

 

[vader86]

There are usually some deals to find on ebay with used/slightly-used engine parts, you may try those. Id have them magnafluxed too.

If you get the 4-bolt, Id just use ARP bolts after having the block checked out thoroughly.

I dont see the point in forged cranks so much as forged pistons and rods, those are under more stress. Id get a good cast crank, Clevite 77 bearings, and then the forged stuff.

There are roller conversion kits sold by some of the tuners i know, but i havent done enough research on this myself to know much about it. I was planning on just buying a ZZ4 block for my 86 down the road for the big buildup.

I wouldnt bother with the LT4 engine, gotta change everything around for reverse cooling and the wiring mess. Standard SBC makes more sense to me.

For that 87, I figure $2500-3500 would be a good price for motor. Id do that, and then build that up, since its already a roller motor. I dont see why you would need the 87s ECM.

 

[rrubel]

I too have an LPE 74219 cam here awaiting installation into my flat tappet 86 block. According to TPIS and LPE, you need a retrofit kit - which is between $400 and $500 and DOES NOT include the roller lifters (they're about $125 more, depending on brand). Now - here's where it gets weird. TPIS's kit is about $425, but I was told you have to drill the block and that I should sell my cam and buy a flat tappet cam and it's not worth doing. However, LPE's kit is about $500 and they swore up and down it's a simple no-drill installation and it's by far the best way to go (even their website suggests going to roller from flat).

I plan on questioning LPE again when I'm closer to doing the work this winter, but that's probably the way I'm going.

Incidently, I also have the SuperRam, with probably a ported stock manifold, and no piston changes planned yet. LPE said that with a decent exhaust I should make about 415 hp at the crank (no mention of torque).

And if you're looking for a good throttle body, I bought a 52mm from David Koldos that I'm quite happy with.
[RICHR]

 

[Moonunit 451]

Excellent info guys I had no idea that it would cost that much for a retro kit for the roller cam, or that the 87 already was set up for one. I'm hoping Eagle will chime back in with more info on that Caprice motor.

I also looked at the ZZ4 block and rolling assembly, but I'm still thinking I might get into something for less$ if I don't get in to big a hurry. I kinda figured the LT4 was too much for me to tackle.

Thanks again

 

[Eagle85C4]

12513151 Caprice TBI motor............1507.16

This is our diamond in the rough . The Caprice TBI is a great performance upgrade for any TBI/TPI car or truck; change the cam and produce over 300 hp. The motor incorporates a factory hydraulic roller cam, a nodular iron crankshaft, hypereutectic pistons, LT/LT4 PM connecting rods, torsional damper and cast iron heads. Motor is not drilled for a mechanical fuel pump.
* 350 CI
* 2 bolt main, 1 piece real seal
* Nodular cast iron crank
* LT1/LT4 Powdered Metal connecting rods
* Hyd. roller cam, .360intake/.385 exhaust 110° lobe seperation
* Cast iron heads with 64cc chambers
* 9.6:1 compression ratio

Pace Parts catalog#1303, page 5

Personally for 1500.00 I think this is a heckuva deal for a BRAND new motor not a rebuild with a 3 year 50,000 mile warranty. Slap a TPI intake and sensors, grab the LT4 hot cam and you got a brand new 350/350 for the vette.
I am getting one and preparing it for the inevitable.....we are looking at an 85 with 150,000 plus miles....just a matter if time. Still got great oil pressure, does not burn oil or make and strange noises, got 125-130 psi on each cylinder but why press the luck when you can have a deal like this.

 

[69MyWay]

Low Budget....big performance....no problem!

Here is what I would do (this is a street car/daily driver with once in a while romps on the 1/4 mile).

1. Get your block machined .030 over, new cam bearings and freeze plugs.

2. Get your crank polished and rods sized.

3. Purchase a complete engine rebuild kit from Summit with the Hyper U pistons.

4. Buy a Crane flat tappet 20/50 compu cam.

5. Spend some $$$ and or time on your heads...port, polish, 3 angle valve job, and have them decked down as much as you can.

6. Get a good quality double roller timing chain from Summit.

**now, you have all you need to put your long block together--fresh and you have spent right at or under $1,000.

7. Do the LT1 intake manifold conversion. I just read a great article about it in the Sept 03 issue of Popular Hot Rodding. Get a 94-97 LT1 intake and injectors. Do the mod and get a small housing F body distributor with the external coil. Get the coolant t-stat stand alone housing from Summit to plumb in/reroute the main radiator hose. Popular Hot Rodding did the LT1 intake for around $300. They tested it against a highly tuned Accell super ram. It made more peak hp, at a higher RPM, and a more broad longer torque curve. The best intake mod for under $500 depending on what you pay for the used intake. Your throttle body will bolt right on it, and all electronics (except EGR) will go right back on!


Now...you pulled it off under $1,500 (depending on what you pay for the intake), and have 350 or so flywheel hp. That is enough to push you into the 12's with good traction, get great fuel economy, and blow people's minds when you pop the hood.

So......when do we start?

 

[Moonunit 451]

WOW:J :crazy That is really great info guys. This really gives me something to research and think about! Those both sound like excellent suggestions. I still don't have the SR yet and at this point I'm not really sure it's gonna happen.

I've got a Summit catalog and I'll look at the rebuild kit, chain, and other stuff you mentioned there Chris. But I do already have the 219 roller cam and that 3yr, 50,000 mi warranty on the Caprice engine that Ray is suggesting is pretty enticing. It would seem that perhaps you believe that there would be an advantage to rebuilding my exhisting block vs. purchasing the Caprice motor besides the cost. Is that the case?

Ray, you mentioned the LT4 hot cam. I know the 219 I have is matched to be run with the SR. Would it not be a good cam to use with the setup you are suggesting? Also are the heads with the 64cc chamber heads better or larger capacity or flow than the original cast Vette heads? I have a set of those that are freshly ported and polished.

I really apriciate you guys suggestions and I think with the help I get here I'll be on the right track before long. :BOW

Damn Chris, I'd like to start SOON, too bad you're so far away

 

[Eagle85C4]

At pace you can also get a NEW L-98 short block...but at 1400.00 it seems better to get the caprice motor. I am sure you can replace the existing cam with your 219 to match the SR. The heads I can't tell you about as I do not have the specs on yours or theirs.

my plan is to buy the Caprice motor, put in in my 85. Then rebuild the original to stock and keep it for a spare and if I ever decide to sell the car I got the original numbered engine for those that are interested in that. Now I can go radical with the Caprice motor and always have the stock one to go back in when needed.
And for 1500.00 what can I say....in most instances the correct machining on a motor for rebuild to make it right could cost more then the whole Caprice motor. And I would most assuredly rather have a new motor then a rebuilt one...

 

[Moonunit 451]

I wanted to post a progress report and thank everyone who responded with lots of advice and options for me to consider.

With the generous help of Eagle85C4 who was kind enough to take a road trip last weekend in western Ohio and check out a motor for me,:BOW here's what I've decided on.



"Complete 383 roller motor for sale. 7:40 AM 8/7/2003

Guys, this is out of my 87 iroc.

I am selling my 383 engine, complete. Its an 87 roller block, has around 9.8:1 compression. Here are the specs, its has about 10k miles on it. Engine : 1pc rear main seal 2 bolt main Eagle cast steel crank 3.750in Eagle I-beam steel rods 5.7in SRP -16cc forged dish pistons
Heads : AFR 195cc CNC heads, 2.02/1.60 valves 64cc chambers center bolt valve cover and 72degree intake holes also has guideplates, they also have upgraded springs to support .600 lift.

Cam : LPE 219/219 .560 lift(w/1.6 crane Roller rockers) New crane roller lifters(oem replacement) Crane 7.200 chrome moly pushrods

Intake : Miniram intake with 58mm LPE throttle body, has 30lb SVO intjectors also. May also throw in the braided fuel lines and needed AN fitting to work on any thirdgen tpi car.

Exhaust : SLP 1 3/4 shorty headers, non-air comes with y-pipe

The engine and headers have about 10k miles on it, the heads have about 4k miles and the intake has an unknown amount of miles. The injectors have about 15k miles on them. All are in Perfect or damm near perfect condition.

Car does not come with any accessories or wiring harnesses, its perfect for bolting your stuff to and going.

I'm looking for 5,000 for the entire setup, its a drop in and run deal. The setup screams. Can still hear run in the car at the current time.

I'm located in Lima, OH(northwestern ohio). I have pictures of the entire motor, even ones of it being assembled. Mail for pictures and any other details or call the above phone number.

I will part the engine out if I can find a buyer for the shortblock."



I'll be getting the package, minus the headers which are third gen specific for about 4 grand plus shipping. This is about as close to what I would have liked to build (if I could have afforded it) as I could get.

It's more than I really wanted to spend, by a fair ammount, but I think I'll be getting a lot of bang for my buck and you only live once, so, here goes

Just wanted to thank you all and give an update. I'll post again when I get it up and running

 

[69MyWay]

You need to consider a stout rear gear to get that monster to really kick.

It sounds like a beast!

You will see the 12's all day long with that bad boy.

 

[-=Jeff=-]

That does look like a good motor, But I don't think the cam is the optimum for the miniram. At any rate the motor will still scream

 

[Moonunit 451]

69MyWay, I kinda new the stock rear end and maybe driveshafts were going to have to go at some point. I guess for a Dana 44 and all the associated buisness, not gonna be able to do it right away, but I'll be keeping my eye open for a good deal. I'll probably have the tranny freshened and put a stall converter and a shift kit put in before I put it all back together:bash like I really have the money , but I really don't want to be tearing this thing apart or breaking S$it and causing more labor and trouble not doing all I can now.

Maybe I should spend some $ on the rear end and stuff and see how the trany does instead. I don't know. All I think I know at this point is this will be my car for a good long time cause I'm gonna get burried in it financially, which is Ok with me. I love the car and I want it to be hot. I don't really have an interest in a newer one. I'll just make this one the only one, and get it the way I want it and enjoy it. I'm really good at holding on to things, but not great at finishing projects to my satisfaction. I think I'm gonna go all out here and have what I really want in the end.

-=Jeff=-, What cam do you think should ultimately go in here assuming all goes well and the motor is strong? I could probably put a different one in later. I need to be sreetable and hopefully sleeper-like.

I'm lookin' at some Borla's. What headers should I be going for, Hooker , Lingenfelter, ?. I need them to put the motor back in for sure. I'm gonna try to find this stuff used at a good price and in good condition.

I'm listening to all suggestions and advice. Thanks to all.

I'm lookin' at escrow.com for the transactions. Any one got better advise on how to make high dollar transactions without credit card options:confused

 

[-=Jeff=-]

Moonunit,

As for cam, the 219 will work fine, but it was not turly desgined for the Miniram, it ws designed to work well with the Superram. I think a cam with a bit more duration would work well in the 383, I was thinking more along the lines of the ZZ409 or such.

Best thing to do is call a cam company, like all the mods, and see what they say, I like using Cam Motion, they are familar with the Miniram as well as most the other parts you listed.

As for Headers, I am using the Hookers on my vette and like them, other said the TPIS ones are nice too.

As for the rear diff, the only difference with the D44 is the Gears and housing, 1/2 shafts and all else are the same.

what every piece you replace ont he drive line just remember the driveline is only as strong as the weakest link. With me, I decided to keep the cutch as the weakest (using a stock disc) siince it is the cheapest piece to replace when I break it

Good Luck

 

[Moonunit 451]

Thanks Jeff, I was originally planning a SR and had one lined up but the guy dropped the ball and I got sick of waiting for him to get back to me. Thus I've got a brand new 219 sitting as well as the one coming with this motor.

The guy originally had a SR on the motor and changed it for some reason, I didn't ask why. I could maybe still get the SR, and sell the other stuff, but the horror stories of instalationhave me kind of spooked.

The Dana44 seems to be desirable from what I've seen, I thought they were stonger, maybe I got something mixed up. Perhaps 69MyWay was trying to tell me that I needed different gearing like 3.07 's or something. I don't want to murder my gas milage in the name of performance ------ yet

How bout the Borla's, 2 and 3/4", is that a good choice? Trying to tie some up for $400 in nice shape

Got em.

Working on some Hooker 2151 1.75" primary headers; Jet Hot coated as well for about the same $.

Talk to me guys

 

[-=Jeff=-]

Moonunit,

Yes the Dana 44 is Stronger. the gears are thicker for it. so the Housings and everything inside are stronger then the Dana 36, but all the 1/2 shafts and such are the same, if that makes sense.

As for exhaust, on my 355 miniram motor I am using the 2151 Hookers with that SAME Borla exhaust (no cats). I think it is a good set-up for a 355 or 383.

As for gears I would go with a 3.54 over the 3.07.

Also the 219 will work for the Miniram but a friend had that same set-up and saw a little more power from the ZZ409.

I bet you could sell one of the 219's (or both) to pay for a different cam. Best time to swap cams is before you drop it in the car

 

[Moonunit 451]

Good advice Jeff, I'll look into the cam change. Down the drive train for an auto then I guess the driveshaft and propellers are probly OK in the HP range I'm likely to be in, but the U-joints would be the weak link and may need some beefing up. Bummer cause I just replaced 4 of six. The ones on the propellers, and I went with the zirked ones Just a few more hours labor