New cam/heads vs Supercharger $$$$$$$

[sscam69]

Even if I had zero deck clearance I would probably not be able to run it because I do know that the pistons are cast. I saw them before the mechanic installed them. But as you mentioned when i do take them off I am going to check the depth of the piston at TDC. That will allow me to run a thin gasket and ruduce that quench depth.

How hard is it to turn that crank with a ratchet and the tranny installed? I have a manual tranny.

I think more than likely I am going to start grad school and in that case I am going to ask the mechanic if I help him out if he will show me how to build engines.

As for the heads I am looking for someone that can sell me those
Vortechs with

-3 angle back-cut
-2.02/1.6 valves
-ported
-screw in studs
-stainless steel valves
-I think I need high performance springs (lift >.47)

all you have to do is just bolt them on.

supposedly the mechanic said he put a cam with 282 degrees duration with .48" lift. That should be putting out some good power but it isn't. My dad told my you can tell just by the sound when the engine is putting out that much power and you can feel it. My bro tested a Trans-Am 02' and he said that thing would whomp on my a$$. That made me very depressed because I thought I had a powerful car. I talked to friend and we went for a cruise and he said it was still pulling strong at the top so I am not to sure WHAT i have in this thing. That can be very frustrating.

Thats the reason I want to change the cam and the heads.

Frank
sscam69

 

[Bullitt]

Frank, I think it may be wise to invest in some dyno time. Even one decent run would provide some valuable information. I know that El Paso is not the most technology-advanced city in the world, but there has to be some place around there with the equipment you need. Perhaps though, the cam was installed straight-up. It is known that some cams installers may think they are at "straight -up," but the cam was actually developed to be retarded at that point. So who was the manufacturer of the camshaft? Even if you just pull the accessories off and degree the cam with a degree kit, you'll at least know what you have. A solid baseline will give you an idea of how to go forward with the bumpstick.

About the heads, maybe Ron can help me out. When were the Vortechs available on the truck production-line? I ask because, the junkyard donor-car price should be more than acceptable and perhaps be the way for cheap power. It's just an idea.

--Bullitt

 

[sscam69]

Yeah I know of a place that has a chassis dyno that can handle up to 1400 hp. They did the work on my oldsmobile when I was having problems with a torque converter lock up selenoid. I already talked to the owner and he chargers $50 for 1/2 hr and says you can get 2-3 runs on it within that time. I just have to call him 3 days to schedule time, especially during the summer.

I was already comtemplating buying them from a junkyard only because I am pretty much going to change everything out except the actual casting.

And its not because El Paso is not the most technological advanced city, its the fact the racing scene is not as big here as compared to Houston or Albeqeurque just north of here. Everything is here you just have to look for it.

Good example. There is a professor at my school who has the money and the cars to play in the underground racing scene. We are talking top dollar races. 3 weeks ago there was a race between 2 supras and an RX-7. HIGHLY modified. $5k buy in. One guy was from Albeqeurque, one from here locally, and the other I think was from roswell.

There is a race that is put on every 3 months or so. $15k buy in. There is a fellow with a McLaren from Juarez that trucks the car over to race over a mountain we have here. He said there are about 13 cars that run that course. If you lose control you are going of a cliff or into a rock wall. Is he lying I don't know but with 36 cars in his collection and millionare status why would he. This is just what he has brought to school

Viper GTS
Viper RT/10
1965 Red Corvette (600c.i.)
1966 Blue Corvette
1934 Ford Dragster
1999 Corvette
1970 Nova w/ Rocket Block
19?? Modified Prowler
He was going to bring his Lamborgihni but it would not start :eyerole

This is what I have seen with my 2 eyes.

Like I said everything is here you just have to look for it.

sscam69

 

[rpounds]

Hey Frank, I wish I could guide you on the Vortech heads, but I have little experience with them. I have a buddy that is really sold on them.

Something to consider . . . if you get a set of heads from the bone yard, you would still need to have them rebuilt. You really don't want to stick them on your engine without having them gone over, at least I wouldn't. Out here in California, getting them gone over correctly would cost you in the neighborhood of $500-$600. If you can get a fresh set for a really reasonable price . . .

For a project that I am working on, I just picked up a fresh set of 291 Camel Humps for less that $300. They have been ported, polished, bowl ported . . . so, good deals are out there if you look hard enough for them.

Just a thought. Oh, by the way, make sure you zip off your head casting numbers to me when you get the chance. You may have a set of heads that are capable of pretty good flow with a little bit of work.

Ron

 

[Bullitt]

Man, I need to get back to the 'ol town someday. Since my grandmother died, I haven't been there in almost 10 years. The racing scene over here stinks. Too many punks or wanna-be racers driving on rice. Though, some big dogs do show up on Mitsubishi road in North Houston. Last time I was there, some dude grenaded his axle. It looked like a pain getting it loaded back on the trailer.

I know that around here, a good once over of the heads can be real expensive if you don't shop around. I found a quality place that did an awesome porting job on a high-school buddy's Galaxie, but they moved awhile back. So, does all this "head talk" mean that you are leaning towards the engine upgrades and done with the blown scoop? You sited one engine build-up that you were punching the numbers through, so I'll see if I can find any that I might have an article on. I remember one done in Vette magazine that was called "409." However, that was done with a LT-1 set-up. Let me know if you're interested and I'll rummage through my stash.

--Bullitt

 

[sscam69]

What part of Texas are you from Bullit?

In general I have noticed that racing is growing every since it took a stoop in the 1970's. Whats worse is that GM is cutting some of its most powerful vehicles. Dummys! Anyways it really seems to be picking up around here. There is the local dragstrip and then there is a mustang car club called competition racing (www.competitionracing.com) and a Chevy club called 1320 that are putting up races at an air strip just outside of the city. This thing is growing and growing fast. We are talking jamb packed with people. There are no lights or timeslips just street racing without the street and its all perfectly legal.

Then you have those ricers. as well. I have almost gotten hit by two because they had turbos and thought they were all that. I swear if one of those chumps hit me I would pull them over and kick the door on of their cars.

It does not elminate the supercharger but I think its going to be easier and more affordable to do the engine upgrades. Oh and thanks Bullit for the info on the 409, I have a lot of chevy hi peformance, super chevy, and car craft magazines. last night i was pulling out old copies and looking through the articles. I found one of exactly what I was trying to build. A 383 with solid components putting out 500hp/500ftlbs on a 96 camaro. That was without the supercharger. It was exactly what I was shooting for so now I just have to follow the recipe. I am just short on one key element $$$$$ LOL :eyerole

sscam69

 

[sscam69]

got Burned

Oh by the way I got burned by an El Camino on the way home from dropping off my gf. We pulled over and I asked him what was he running.

He said "383 with some vortech heads". Go figure that one out.

sscam69

 

[Bullitt]

I live outside of Houston, Frank. The problem is that racing over here is looked down upon, as if you were smoking crack or something. Another problem is that those kids who just got their new Mustang from Daddy, usually kill someone on the road once a year. The only 1/4 mile out here, that happens to be NHRA sanctioned, is around a 1 1/2 hours from me. The lines are always long on the weekend and the local cops aren't the nicest people to wear a badge. The last time I was there, some butt-head threatened to impound my ride. ad The racing in North Houston is alright, but the spectators are just too close to the action. I once saw a Firebird fishtail and nearly take out four people. Two of which were kids. What moron parent lets their 8 yr. old get that close to a staging car?!

How many other cams grinds have you looked at? I went through my big PAW book and realized there were more than I had remembered. I got some specs on Crower, Edelbrock, Crane, Isky, Comp, PAW's own stuff and some others. If you want any, just ask. If you don't mind, I'd like to send you some specs on my engine, to see which cam pulls in what RPM range.

Lastly, in my latest Summit catalog, they have Vortech's Carburetor supercharger for small-blocks. The price is at $2,300 for a satin finish and $2,470 polished.

--Bullitt

 

[sscam69]

Thats hard to believe, not that your lieing or anything but because you actually have NHRA events over there and the S.A.M. school I figured that the racing scene was bigger over there. The city is also a heck of a lot bigger than El Paso.

Over here its the ricers that end up killing themselves. There has been a few unfortunately.

When I was talking to the guy with the El Camino about the airport strip he told me he was hearing stuff about fights breaking out, drinking and a lot of kids smoking pot. I don't know if I want to get involved in that but again I have never been there and neither did the other guy. If it turns out to be a bad thing I just won't go anymore. I am going to take my digital camera and take some pics and post them.

Comp cams are the only cam grinds I have looked at and thats because I have the catalog from them.

Send me the specs on your engine I would be more than happy to run a few demos. You can see from the screen shots what the program requires. If you have any questions just let me know. OH the only thing is see if you can find out the intake center angle not the lobe separation angle or let me know what to assume when I run the program.

If you look at the supercharger post someone mentioned about the centrifugal supercharger having problems with fender well clearance. I think I am going to do the heads first and then the cam. That direction will be the most feasible in the really near future. Tommorow I am going to take off the covers and see what the casting numbers so that I can run them by Ron.

Frank

 

[Bullitt]

Yeah, you'd think the racing scene would be different out here. There are some guys that I plan to hook up with once I get my Vette back on the road running. They mostly have musclecars and the guy I talked to was pretty cool, so I'll see how that goes. It's really changed alot since I was running the streets. For example, I rolled up on some guys a few weeks ago, who were checking out the scene down on Westheimer (the big "night out" street in Houston). I asked if there was any action going on, but they were just as interested in finding some racing as me. The only other guy I talked to, who happened to in a Shark, said the only stuff he knew of was still out on Mitsubishi Rd. in North Houston.

I need to write everything down on the specs for my 454 and I'll then pass them along. I'm not sure if I can get the intake angle from what I have, but I plan to degree my cam to see where I'm at, anyways. Hopefully, things will start to come together this week. Right now, I'm thinking that I may be able to stretch out a roller cam set-up out of my budget. I may have to settle with second-hand roller lifters, but it'd be cool, since I could go a bit more radical on the camshaft.

Have you tried looking at Lunati? Click here for Lunati's Cams, but I'm not sure all the information is there for the computer program. I know that's what they used on Crank & Chrome when they did their Ranchero project, last year. Albeit, it was a 454 and they used the Bracket Master series. Here's the write up at their site: Strett Avenger Holley/Lunati Cam. It looks pretty impressive for me and perhaps, the small-block cams are the same story. I need to count the money before the horses and see where I can go first. :gap

--Bullitt

 

[sscam69]

Ok Ron here are the casting numbers off the heads on the car

462624 K237
462624 B219

I found these numbers on the heads in between the rocker arms.

Frank

 

[rpounds]

Frank,

You're in luck. These heads were used on 350s from 80-85. I don't have the flow numbers yet, but I'm working on it. I'll post back with any information that I can find.

Ron

 

[sscam69]

Ron So I would assume they are not smog castings from the tone of your post.


Bullit went to that airport dragraces. WOW!!! Talk about jam packed. If you have ever seen the movie field of dreams. At the end of the movie there is a scene where there is a trail of cars as far as you could see in the distance to get to the field. Thats what it was like to get in. Luckily we got in early.

There were a lot of ricers at the beginning but the real muscle came out later that night. There were two cars that I wanted to see go at it. A beat up nova and a mustang 5.0. These things were fast. The Nova went up against a Ford Lightining and pulled up 1/2 car ahead and held it there all the way down the strip. That race was awesome and everybody was cheering for the Nova.

I am going to take my dad and I think all my bros want to go next weekend. I took some video but ran out of battery right away.

Frank

 

[sscam69]

Thanks bullit

That is a good website. I am going to have to check out that crank & chrome website. That was a great article on changing the cam already in the engine. That was exactly what I needed, a visual aid. I learn by watching.

So thats my next step. Cam and Heads. The only problem is I am going to have to change out the springs for the new cam and for that I need to do machine work. There is no point on doing it on these same castings if I can get better ones. Lets see what Ron turns up I checked out the Pace Performance website and they sell the Vortech heads for $386. I am hoping this is the pair because it does not say on the website.

OH I ran a simulation on a setup edelbrock did, its the performer rpm setup (heads, cam, lifters, intake etc). They had really thorough information on the build and the exact specs of the cam. I plugged the numbers in the program and it turned out that the power and torque peaked right at the same points but the simulation fell short about 40hp and 40ftlbs of torque. What could this be attributed to? Well I am thinking that those little things that you do such as quench, timing, jetting, good ignition system etc add up those horses and thats the result.

The program does not take all of this into account and has to make certain assumptions. It is very difficult to describe what is exactly going on in the engine with mathematical models. But like I said it gives you an idea of whats going on.

Send me those specs on your 454. I can crunch some numbers for you see if you like what you see.

Frank

 

[Bullitt]

From what I've read, the Vortech heads are around $400 or so. Scoggin-dickey advertises 219.50 ea. for complete assemblies. The part number listed is 12558060. Looking at the February 2002 issue of Car Craft they did a bench test of Vortech iron heads and compared them to a Bow Tie Phase 2 and a '70s (76cc) casting. Though the Bow Tie head has more potential in an all out race configuration, the Vortech outflowed it instreet trim. Here's the numbers:

Vortech L31: 1.94in/1.5 exhaust
Ehaust/intake flow ratio 61.5% @ .500 lift
Max power potential 492hp @ .500 lift

Car Craft also gave some installation notes.

• Requires Vortech Intake
• Requires center-bolt valve covers
• No exhaust heat riser
• 64cc rises compression about one point over 76cc casting
• Pressed in rocker studs with no guideplates
• As-delivered factory valve job cannot be improved on. Don't try.

I think it's a good investment to just buy them off the shelf and not worry about getting them used, contrary to what I first thought. This horsepower upgrade is cheaper than what I had thought. At least you'll know exactly what you're dealing with. I've been going through so much of my stuff lately that I haven't gotten the time to get the figures off my engine down. As soon as I do, I'll shoot you over the information.

--Bullitt

 

[Bullitt]

Going back to the 409 LT1 engine that I hareferred to earlier, looks like it's too much of a high buck motor. The compression ratio is 11.2:1, has Ross forged pistons, Callies forged crank 3.875, 5.85 rods and a TPIS fuel injection unit. The 409 camshaft is a single pattern with .525 lift and 225 degrees of duration at .050. So I don't think that this will neccessarily work for you.

The computer simulation variances can go down on to many things. Unless you are running software akin to top race teams, there's always going to be some set-ups that are off. Also, it's not unheard of for manufacturers to beef up their claim for advertsing purposes. However, it has been shown that some figures are actually conservastive, with those engines producing more power. It's just a two way street and you "never really know till you dyno."

Oh, one more thing. You might want to consider buying John Lingenfelter's book on the small-block Chevy. There's a lot of good information there about building up a street package. I might also have a tape recording of Crank&Chrome's camshaft show. If I do, I could send you over a copy for reference.

--Bullitt

 

[rpounds]

Bullitt,

You hit the nail on the head with Lingenfelter's book. It's a very good read. Something that he points out that too many people forget, is to take note of where you want to make your power. High end, low end? Mid range?

Which makes one think of gearing, stall speed, etc.

In the same book, he has a very good disertation on cylinder heads.

Frank,

I haven't found anything specific on your heads yet as far as flow rate. That's not always the whole story however. Sorry that I haven't gotten back to that yet . . . I have a project at work that is in the testing phases and it has left me little time for anything other than sleeping and eating . . .

Ron

 

[sscam69]

I bought it a while back and read it first to see where I wanted to go with it. I really enjoyed the easiness of reading the book and how he presents the information with the bigger picture in mind as well as letting you know what your limitations were for your options. Has some really good pointers to. I should go back and read it again to refresh my memory. I also have some books from David Vizard on heads and engine building.

Hey bullit that would be really great on that video. I would really appreciate it. Does that come out on cable television, and on what channel. My dad wants cable now that he has a 52" TV we bought him for christmas and that show would be a nice benifit.

Hey Ron thats alright on that info. I know how demanding engineering can be sometimes. I am pulling my hair trying to get a temperature control system put together for an engine we are working on. Same with you Bullit. Send the info when you have a chance. I posted up the results of that edelbrock test so that you could get an idea of how the software works and its accuracy. I am going to try and simulate a setup from CHP. That Goodwrench engine build they did in over something like 5 parts.

I think those vortechs are going to turn out to be a little bit more money and hassle. I have to get covers for them and then machine work for the screw in studs, springs and so on and so forth. I am looking at the Sportsman II from world products. The have the fast burn chambers, 64cc, screw in studs, 2.02/1.6 stainless valves with swirl,can take .56" of lift. This makes them a more flexible head for future engine builds all I have to do is port them. The will be a bit more but are an investment.

Any thoughts? Bullit, Ron or anybody else.

Frank

 

[Bullitt]

Yeah guys, I just wish Lingenfelter would do a book on BBC. I guess it's still relative to any engine though. I know he used to sell a line of camshafts for the Rats, but I guess he's passed on it's continuation.

Frank, it should take me a day or two to find the copy of the show I have. It comes out on TNN, which airs Crank&Chrome on Saturday afternoons, Sunday mornings and around Midnight on Sunday/Monday. Our times vary, so check out a TV Guide or something. I'll try to make a copy this weekend and then I'll need your address. I'll include the episode where they replace the heads, too. There's a lot of stuff that I have on tape, so if I find anything else interesting, I'll copy that too.

Are you thinking of doing the porting yourself? CHP has an article this month on head porting, so that would be useful. They picked up about 43 cfm on the exhaust side, but I don't know if you could see those gains on a Sportsman head, since they are of better casting quality. I know Lingenfelter believes in porting the intake side too, but CHP only gained a handful on that side. Of course, the pros can find those extra few horses that escapes us DIYers.

--Bullitt

 

[sscam69]

I would like to do the porting myself, would save me $100 bucks but I don't have the tools necessary. I could buy a Dremel and go that route but the setup is going to cost me a $100 bones anyways. It would be an investment though. I am not to keen on porting. I would figure I would have to really read up on it, I would not want to blow a new set of $800 heads!

I wouldn't know if I would want to shape the bowl or the runners. What I would want to do is just polish the interior walls of the casting.

Same principles would apply for a big block just on a bigger scale. I was playing around last night, just for fun, with World castings merlin small block. You can bore it out to 4.2" and put a 3.875 stroke crank in it. 350 on the outside 415ci. on the inside! The ultimate sleeper! I even ran a simulation. With a roller cam and just the cubes you could put out 500ftlbs LOL!

That was fun.

Frank