OMG I Talked to a GM Engine Engineer about C6 OMG!!!

[Stan A]

Bracketing

Although the Corvette is only 1% to 2% of all Chevy sales depending on the year, we have to remember that it is grouped in the car category which is about 40% to 55% of the entire production line. No knowing how many cars they will actually sell, the Corvette percentage could rise up to as much as 5% to 6%. Even at this level its very low but in the scheme of things, it does have some effect. There are other factors in the GM grouping which have included the Camaro and Firebirds which also used the LS series motor too.

With the demise of both these cars after this year, more focus should be on the Vette and their numbers. However, the EPA and CAFE requirements in most cases will force or reduce the power plants we will see. So in a sense, if CAFE does not get them EPA guidelines will in the long run.

In modern times GM (since the 1960's and 1970's)has never produced a car with more horsepower than 405 for stock street use. The ZR1 was first and now the Z06. So far the main reason has been the "gas guzzler" tax which at this time may or may not be in effect. As much as we would love to see more ponies, I believe that GM position will not change anytime soon even without the outside effects of EPA and CAFE.

Again, in reference to high horsepower like the LS6, we have to remember that each engine that the big three use in their vehicles has to be certified. Costs are a little over a million dollars per engine. As long as they stay with the original development format, re-testing does not need to be for certification. However, when changes come about through testing and development like with the LT5 back in 1988 and in this case a whole new motor, certification again had to be done.

The "bean counter" want to save money at every turn so by eliminating this process of certifications each year, they have chosen to use only three or four motors through an entire car line for a number of years in a row.

One other thing that we all need to look at is the engine application and reliability over years of use. The LS6 according to GM sources has reached 95% of its output limit of power based on its current setup. Yes, more power can be added but when you warranty a system repair and replacement costs are the real keys to whether more power is produced. Its the profit line that counts.

Increase in horsepower only occurs when sales are low or drop off or competition is present that is in the same price range. Currently, the Corvette product has no direct competition in its price range. The first year sales of the Z06 were good and the second year is expected to be higher and the 20 ponies has helped this. Note this year with regards to the 2003 Z06..no increase! Reason is that the ticket to increased sales will be based on the 50th Anniversary edition.

I still believe that the C6 will be marketed like the C5. Coupe first, than convertible a year or so later, and than a Z0? three to four years later. This process has worked well for two decades. Why fix someting that is not broken.

Stan

 

[Edmond]

Stan,

So is what you're saying that the 405 HP that GM has managed to wring out of the 350 the most that the 5.7 N/A motor is pretty much capable of?

I personally thought that rising competition was one of the reasons why they brought the Z06 into production in 01'. I also thought that they rushed the 2001 and the product they really intended to come out with was the one they eventually came out with in 2002.

But, there has been so much talk about how Bob Lutz will turn GM around and get more performance vehicles out there. I really hope that he can do it.

 

[lytemup]

stan- i can see we are not going to agree on this.

however, proposed cafe increases were defeated in congress earllier this year, and there is no way an increase will happen in the near future- possibly even during the lifespan of the C6. while emissions regs are getting tighter, there are technologies to help meet these regs (i.e. close-coupled-cats). while adding cost, it is relatively small in the price of a vette.

please also remember chevy is a division of GM, and that's where the numbers count. not chevy's car sales, GM's. i may b mistaken but i don't think cars and trucks are broken out in emissions like they are in CAFE (?).

(del)

 

[Edmond]

I'll have to agree with both Stan and lytemup on their points. I do agree that the government will impose or try to impose stricter standards on automotive emissions. But I also agree that all the car manufacturers will do their best to meet those standards and come out with higher performing cars.

 

[Wamp]

Bullwinkle

In reply to your FREE air and better MPG. If we are sacraficing horsepower for cleaner air than what is stopping you from building your own engine? In reply to cracking down on the Semi-truckers of the US that are paying a higher price for fuel than you and use alot more of it. These wonderful people that deliver your corvette from manufacturer to dealer and vitually all your parts to keep your car on the road, I wouldent be so forthcoming on putting even more restrictions on them than there are already or that oil filter may cost you $200.00 next time you change it.

 

[Stan A]

Discussions

The Z06 Tremac 6 speed is at best very reliable under normal driving at mid to high rpms. When put under load and shifts come at the peak rpms (red line) for example, this tranny does show its short comings with intermittment failures in a higher percentage than GM wants to see. Power shifting increases the risk to so sort of failure. The claim is that 460hp/460ft-lbs torque limit according to Tremac. GM likes to build in a 50hp+ protection window in cases like this. Yes, GM could have raised the HP but it was not necessary because they had a "sale ploy" with the celerbration of the 50th anniversary. Again, look to the history of what GM has done as a guideline to what they may well do in the future.

The magazines need to sell their product. Match up of all these different cars is their tool to do this. I agree that the Viper is not in the same class as the Z06. But performance enthusiasts always ask the questions... How does each car stock up against the other? This one question sells millions of magazines worldwide.

Any manufacturer can build more power but at what cost. Warranties are the big issues. Development is the second. We have to remember what the bean counter function is...save and make money. The bean counters wear the so called pants in that large family.

The point of reversal on the CAFE requirements was only on the SUV and trucks. The car requirements are still the same but a small reduction was installed for 2004 to 2008. However, this still means that the manufacturers will have to make changes to be able to reach this point with regards to the cars. SUV and trucks were given a repreve by weight factor guideline changes.

However, the original guidelines of all vehicles under 5,000lbs of 28mpg average for 2008 is still setup to take place. This will mean that all cars, light trucks and SUV and Vans will need to get a minimum of 23mpg in the city and 33mpg on the road. Current 8 cylinder motors cannot supply or meet these guidelines. This is a little off the main subject but I felt that all of us should have all the facts with regards to this discussion. In order to meet these minimum CAFE guidelines, all manufacturers will began making small changes in this direction. Reduction of weight and smaller size motors across the board.

As to the point of sales as a guideline, each year each manufacturer use their previous numbers to estimate where they will being making changes. This helps them to determine where production effects CAFE in each category. Chevy as you stated is a part of GM. That why I mentioned in the previous thread that it was more than Corvette but camaros and Firebirds too.

Competition I referred to was in the form of sales and pricing alone not total performance. You still get more for your money with a stock Vette which does include all performance aspects than any other car built in that price range. With only a small handful of sports cars like the Mustang SVT Cobra, BMWZ3,BMWM3, and a couple of other, the Corvette has no direct competition that matches all elements especially performance for its sales price. This is especially true with the Z06!

The key here is that only time will show us what is to take place. However, like I said before, I see nothing benefical to the true enthusiasts to take place over the next 5 to 10 years. I hope I am wrong but with government intervention I am afraid most of our best times are behind us.

Everyone have a great holiday weekend....................

 

[Black Ice]

GM plans to employ a variable displacement engine Ala V8-6-4. There are plenty of High Tech tricks they can do to counter emissions problems lookfor the new version to first show up on the GM truck line. Also look for flexi fuel options.