Performance Brake Upgrades

[Evolution1980]

I did some searches on the site here (under the C3 forum) and didn't really find much current, so I'm gonna bring it up again.

As my need for speed increases, my need for braking increases. With that in mind, what are some recommendations on brake upgrades (besides slotted rotors, metallic pads, etc)? I'm thinking I'd like to go to larger diameter rotors (better perfomance naturally, but looks good too).
Is VBP still the top choice for a brake system overhaul? What about individual components and putting it all together myself? Which vendors/products/suppliers have a good rep with the vette community? I only know of VBP, and from what I gather, they are very good about standing behind and supporting their product.

 

[AKRAY4PLAY]

VB&P is great. they have sweet customer service and very good tech line. i love my perf plus suspension kit, the tech guys got all the vital vehicle info to tune the kit before shipping and they nailed it perfectly. i would not hessitate to buy anything from them. i am not sure they offer the super high end brakes you are looking for though, give them a call. Baer makes some kits for C3's though, http://www.baer.com/. you might want to try Brembo also, but i think they are more into exotics than classics. Brembos prices are exotic as well. i have the VB&P o-ring calipers all the way around, and they do a good job of stopping my car, but it is trimmed to around 3000 lbs. at least you have three places to start your quest, Brian

 

[resto75]

VBP o'ring calipers are what I am using and mine work great. I don't think you can go wrong with them. They probably have the best reputation and the most expertise in the field.There are probably other brake products that are good too but why not go with a sure thing.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I am always looking to upgrade brakes, as well. My suggestions are:

1. Do not buy aftermarket brake caliper systems. Stick with the GM calipers. I have tried several aftermarket systems for other cars, and have found something major wrong with each. For example, some of these systems do not come with the metal water/dirt shields. When it rains, the lack of these shields often causes erratic braking performance. Some of these calipers also allow the pad to rattle around and make noise. The most frustrating thing was that they were ALL expensive, a headache to put in and didn't work any better, sometimes not as well as stock! Save your money.

2. Stay away from slotted/drilled rotors. I have asked about these ad nauseam, and NO ONE I have spoken with has actually tried them, or, if they have says they are better. Instead, everyone gives you the theory of why they should be better. Your best bet is to buy an American manufactured pair of standard rotors.

3. As to pads, I have had good luck with Hawk standard pads---if you drive your car in the real world you want the pad which stops best when an emergency situation crops up on the freeway in front of you. Many of the deluxe pads are NOT the best in this situation, as they need to be warmed up before they work well. In the real world you are not interested in the tenth hard stop but the first one. Something to beware of is a pad that is advertised for both street and track (this means that it has to be warmed up and will not do well on the street in an emergency), or that "may" give "some" noise, etc etc. This means that it will screech unmercifully.

4. As to calipers, I have had so-so luck with Vette brakes. They are o.k. but several have developed leaks. There is a company in Dallas or thereabouts called "Lonestar caliper". They are on the net, and many people swear by them. I replaced two leaking Vette Brakes calipers with them, and they feel a bit better than the Vette Brakes ever did.

The best piece of advice I can give, though, is to drive the car regularly to keep the brakes exercised and in shape and to get the brakes bled often (at least once a year), and also everytime that you disconnect the calipers from the suspension. This will keep a firm pedal.

I was at a local Corvette show this weekend and really came away liking my own car best. It's my only car, and driving a car regularly seems to keep everything in a smoothly operating condition, whereas, the trailer queen crowd has cars that look perfect but suffer from the automotive equivalent of arthritis. These brakes get better if used.

--Chris Kennedy
Houston, Texas

 

[Bob Chadwick]

The Marketers really earn their money! The whizbang slotted/cross-drilled/cryogenically-treated rotors really look good at the cruise-in, especially with the billet/machined/powder-coated/technicolor calipers that show through the forged/polished/plated/chromed big-window wheels, and if that's your preference, no problem. The fact remains that the stock disc brake system is outstanding technology, even after almost 40 years, for anything short of all-out road-racing use where rapid heat dissipation under repetitive max-G braking from over 100mph is essential.

For a non-ABS street-driven car, none of that stuff has any real-world stopping advantage over the stock system; what stops the car is the TIRES, not the brakes, in a one-stop situation. In a one-stop situation, any brake system that is capable of locking the wheels will stop the car just as short as any other system, whether it's drum, disc, or disc/drum. The tire interface at the road surface is what stops the car - the brakes only stop the wheels.

I think John has pretty much covered it.

 

[Evolution1980]

I am always looking to upgrade brakes, as well. My suggestions are:

1. Do not buy aftermarket brake caliper systems. Stick with the GM calipers. I have tried several aftermarket systems for other cars, and have found something major wrong with each.
...
4. As to calipers... There is a company in Dallas or thereabouts called "Lonestar caliper". I replaced two leaking Vette Brakes calipers with them, and they feel a bit better than the Vette Brakes ever did.

So did you stick with GM/OEM or Lonestar???

 

[Chris Kennedy]

So did you stick with GM/OEM or Lonestar???

I see the confusion---Lonestar rebuilds the stock GM calipers, as does Vette Brakes, they don't manufacture replacement (non-GM) calipers. As I said, I drive the car a lot and have had Vette Brake calipers develop leaks. This happened after thousands of miles, and, perhaps, at some point, the Lonestars will leak, too. We'll see, but after the Vette Brakes experience I am up for trying a different remanufacturer. Vette Brakes also offers something new in their latest catalog, but the brakes that I got that leaked were, as I recall, their last "something new", which were brakes that used new castings. Let's face it: These calipers are advertised as not leaking, not pumping air, etc etc. I don't brutalize the car, and take care of it, so when the calipers do leak it's time to try someone else.

--Chris Kennedy
Houston, Texas

 

[Thumper]

Man, opinions really seem to be all over the place around here. The slotted or cross drilled rotors are for removal of the gasses that the brake pads give off when heated up. For a normal street driven car, this is most likely not an issue (unless you drive like I do in Dallas traffic). The metallic pads do not work as well as the asbestos pads in normal street driving, as they do not come into their own until they heat up. And yes, they do tend to squeal more than the standard pads.

I must agree, the stock braking system that GM put on the C3's is pretty hard to beat, and was ahead of it's time....in it's time. I have read (I believe on the other forum) where it's not too hard to put C4 brakes on a C3, but you might have to go to a larger rim size to clear the brakes. I've had good luck with Vette Brakes products, Muskegon Brakes products, and have friends that have liked Lonestar Caliper. What I've not had good luck with is calipers from the local auto parts stores. It's best to buy from vendors that specialize in Vettes.

I've also heard good things about Hydroboost brake conversions ( www.hydroboost.com ) which uses hydraulic assist rather than vacuum assist.

 

[Evolution1980]

Both Chris Kennedy and Bobchad/John Z make valid points.

I suppose I can input a little of my own knowledge here, but first let me qualify my driving style. If I'm not just cruising along at or below the speed limit, then it's most likely WOT for me. If I'm gonna go over the speed limit, then I'm going over the speed limit :L So my main application for brakes (and main reason for upgrading) is to cure my top speed braking woes. I don't stop quick enough and I get way too much brake fade (due most likely to pad composition).
Also, since brake fluid is exceptionally hygroscopic, as well as it's performance is very much decreased by getting hot, I know that it is likely due for a changing.

As for rotors: it comes down to physics and intended application. It's been gone over many times in this forum and others. Suffice to say that I've used solid and cross-drilled ("x-drilled") rotors. X-drilled (except maybe Porsche's ceramic) offer no real world improvement in braking performance. In fact, it may be a detriment now. Slotted, on the other hand (I believe) do in fact offer better performance, as they should reduce any glazing and gas buildup that occurs between the pad and rotor during hard/severe braking.
From a simple physics standpoint, solid rotors are the best when it comes to simply doing what a rotor is supposed to do.

I'd like to go to a larger and slotted rotor. I'll probably go with a semi-metallic pad. The best pads I've ever had were Mintex C1144a. I think they are made by Bendix over in the UK. I've never had pads work like those puppies. Unfortunately, they were $100 for a front set. But when I needed to stop, they were worth every dime. Right now I'm running Performance Friction pads on the OEM rotors and calipers.

I'm leaning this way:
I'll likely look into the Hawk (Green?) pads and possibly some Brembo slotted rotors. But I'll first check out VBP and Lonestar. I'll also probably go with Ford Blue brake fluid. (If I'm not mistaken, the GM racing team uses it in their C5R cars). I'll likely stay with the OEM calipers unless I end up going to a larger rotor, in which case, again I'll check the two aforementioned companies, as well as Wilwood, Baer, and Brembo.

(Feel free to keep contributing to this thread though. I'm not going to be doing this for a while still. And the more info there is here, the better for everyone that reads or needs it.)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, John Z is absolutely correct when referencing cars without ABS. Most people don't follow that concept or realize how much of the equation choice of tires plays. At low speeds, I can usually lock the wheels if I really try hard (which I don't because I know better). But at high speeds they won't lock before noticeable brake fade sets in.

 

[TheRedVikingSE]

Thanks for the Info

All I have been able to find untill now is stuff like Mid America and Davies. I just ordered a complete set with O-rings from VB&P, that look much better and easier and cheaper.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

But at high speeds they won't lock before noticeable brake fade sets in.

Strange, mine is 100% stock (gee, imagine that) and will lock 'em up at any speed- if I push hard enough. What exactly do you mean by "they won't lock before noticeable brake fade sets in".

Mike

 

[bossvette]

I just did a complete brake job on my Wifes 82 pretty much stock since she doesn't drive hard

 

[groovyjay]

I've had 100% stock brakes on my C3's, totally rebuild. They are ok on daily driving. After having the car sit during the winter season, every spring the calipers have started to leak, no good. Solution: Stainless sleeved calipers. I've used sleeved calipers on all my C2&C3 Corvettes and found them to be fine until you take the car on a road course and do some hard braking for couple of laps. The brakes start to fade pretty soon. Solution: Hawk pads and best brake fluid.

You can go a long way with the latter set up, it will work on street and on track, biggest flaw is the cast iron calipers, which are heavy and will stay hot for long time after hard braking, pushing the brake fluid to it's limit. Solution:

Got some 13" cross drilled and slotted 2-piece rotors. Like someone mentioned above, some people say that never buy drilled and slotted rotors. I can't see why, they vent out the brake gasses, stay cooler and weight less, and I do severe stop from speeds over 150mph on pretty regular basis and so far these puppies have worked flawlessly.

There rotors also have seperate aluminum hat, which is another great thing. Much less weight, plus the heat from the rotors will not transfer to the wheel bearings and the rotors will cool down quicker.

6-piston superlite calipers from Wilwood. Greatest advantage over the stock units: Weight or should I say material. These aluminum calipers are amazingly light and won't heat up like the cast iron calipers do.

First thing I noticed after completing the brake swap was the much improved steering and steering feed back. Due all the weight lost, the steering is much more accurate now, I couldn't ever believe the difference it made, but I'm so happy that it did!

At the back I have same size rotors with 4-piston billet dynalites. Yet another great way to save weight where it counts. I will change my rear spring for softer one, now that there's less weight to worry about.

Making sure I have the braking power lap after lap is the hydroboost, this thing is sick. The pedal feel is great and it really provides accurate brake power every time. I love it!

Jay

 

[Evolution1980]

Wow! A thread resurrection of of more than 3 years! :L :L

groovyjay, that's what you currently have on your C3? What mods were required? Did you have to go to different spindles or rims? Where did you get your Wilwood setup and what the approximate cost for the entire setup? (rotors, calipers, hydroboost...)

 

[Ed's 1970]

I wish someone would make a kit to swap in C5 front brakes. I put these on my '94 Z28, OMG huge difference! The C5 calipers are a work of art and they are cheap. Remember about 80% of your braking power is from the front brakes.

 

[Koop]

If you don't spend the big $ on the set up above, get the Hawk HPS. I assume as new as your car is you have power brakes, if not the stock power brake set up works great. The stainless sleaves are a must. I had factory power brakes installed and the HPS pads last year (I've had the stainless sleaves for about 20 years). I wanted to do the insane set up above, but in addition to the expense of the brakes I was informed I would need a larger set of wheels, my mechanic (Corvette only guy for 25 years) talked me out of it. Now I have plenty of brakes, I keep wanting to put a wet shot in the car, I think I have enough brakes to get 'er done. I was prepared to drop $5,000 on the brakes, but I like the stock look of my car and larger wheels (they look good) aren't for me. I spent a ton less and I am completely satisfied with this set up.

My car will never see a race track, this set up gets the job done on the street and I drive the old car very hard.

 

[itzan84]

Muskegon Brake sells complete kits that feature Lonestar calipers. I did mine (72) last year and am very pleased with them.

I did some searches on the site here (under the C3 forum) and didn't really find much current, so I'm gonna bring it up again.

As my need for speed increases, my need for braking increases. With that in mind, what are some recommendations on brake upgrades (besides slotted rotors, metallic pads, etc)? I'm thinking I'd like to go to larger diameter rotors (better perfomance naturally, but looks good too).
Is VBP still the top choice for a brake system overhaul? What about individual components and putting it all together myself? Which vendors/products/suppliers have a good rep with the vette community? I only know of VBP, and from what I gather, they are very good about standing behind and supporting their product.

 

[Evolution1980]

Muskegon Brake sells complete kits that feature Lonestar calipers. I did mine (72) last year and am very pleased with them.

Thanks, itzan84, but my post you quoted was from 2004. I've since had my brakes replaced with an entire VB&P kit.

 

[C3RVETTE]

Wow! A thread resurrection of of more than 3 years! :L :L

groovyjay, that's what you currently have on your C3? What mods were required? Did you have to go to different spindles or rims? Where did you get your Wilwood setup and what the approximate cost for the entire setup? (rotors, calipers, hydroboost...)

Yeah...I'd like more info on the rotors & calipers myself!

 

[BOB SWEETING]

HYDROBOOST CONVERSION

We (POWER BRAKE SERVICE) were the instigators of the use of the hydrobosst on muscle cars and street rods, many years ago. Most of these cars had bigger cams which lowered the vacuum available to produce the high pressure needed to operate disc brakes. Many cars were converted to discs from drums. The drums brake boosters were limited to 600psi (the lock-up point of most drum brakes) discs need 1200psi or more to work. 7" to 12" of vacuum will reduce a disc brake booster's output to less than 700psi. Big problems with a fast, heavy car. the hydroboost runs off of the p/s pump, and needs no vacuum. It can deliver up to 2000psi to the calipers, with no vacuum involved. It is also smaller. It is basically the same size as a master cyl, and it is kind of like bolting 2 masters in line. It will clear those 572 and BB Corvettes. It also gives an incredible improvement and positive feel to those 65-82 cars that always had a mushy pedal. We use an adjustable rod to raise the pedal off the carpet, and the pedal only travels 1/2"! The 84-up cars had a tiny plastic, weak booster, that melts because of the cat heat. No good. Supercharged cars have little vacuum, and little room for the big vacum booster. The hydroboost solves both of those problems. We have a special contract with Bosch for new Hydroboosts, and we have installation kits for all cars, Jeeps, trucks, 4x4's, street rods, and Grand Nationals. There are some cool photos in the gallery. powerbrakesonline.com