Pop-ups? ...revisited!

[Zektor]

Well, I guess a few people have noticed that the pop-up lights debate seems to have died out a bit. Maybe fellow 'vetters are getting used to the idea of having light clusters rather than pop-ups? A few months ago when the debate first came to light I was of the camp that said I don't mind the idea of light clusters as long as the Corvette team doesn't make them look cute (ie. rounded!) and they don't ruin the overall aggressiveness of the front on view of the Corvette. For me, Corvette always has been about an aggressive looking looking car that practically frightens the driver in the front when he looks in his rear view mirror! Ha! Ha! I'm afraid a "cute" rounded set of light clusters will ruin this important aspect of the new Corvette. Something like the Lamborghini Murcielargo's angular projector style lights will suit the Corvette for a menacing look. Rounded lights like the Ferrari 360 Modena's are NOT the way to go. Motoring press from many countries have said that the 360's looks are a little dodgy from the front... and they all say they are not sure of the lights arrangement. Corvette does not need to go down this road either. So, here is what I think needs to be done...

NOTHING... Yep, that's right nothing! Now, you're all thinking, where is this guy coming from? Well, here's my thinking....

I buy all kinds of motoring magazines each month. And all that I see is that every car maker is bucking the pop-up style headlamps in favour of fixed lights. RX7... pop-ups, RX8... fixed, early NSX... pop-ups, Late NSX... fixed. Early Diablo... pop-ups, Late Diablo... fixed. The list goes on and on. It seems to me that virtually all car manufacturers are heading down the fixed headlamp route. So why does the Corvette need to follow suit? Why not the Corvette STAY with pop-up lights? Did anyone have a problem with pop-up lights anyway? ...I think not? Did any one of you current Corvette owners think "damn, I wish the Corvette had fixed headlights" before you went out and bought one? I didn't think so either.

So why change then? Surely, if the Corvette is to stay a legend in it's own right and follow it's own path to greatness... NOT following the herds of wannabe's then the Corvette needs to STAY with pop-ups, surely?

Imagine the Corvette staying with time honoured tradition and keeping it's lights hidden away like it has done for 40 odd years, rather than following the crowd and looking like a 350Z rival. If the 'vette kept it's pop-up lights it would and currently does look markedly different to any other sports car on the road. Surely the look of independence lends the look of exclusivity?

I've changed my mind the Corvette needs to keep it's pop-up lamps. Too many car manufacturers are going with the fixed lights option. GM, if you want to keep the Corvette special, a car unlike any other, then keep the pop-ups. It's only a small detail, but in years to come it will make all the difference. It will be a talked about detail of the car in decade's to come. People will look back and say "Yep, the 'vette was different, all other cars in the period looked the same, but the 'vette was something else".
If it's a matter of cost, a cheaper alternative to pop-ups could be manufactured. How about electric slide over covers? It's a fresh chance to be imaginative with how the headlamps are deployed. Fixed lamps do nothing, but a well engineered pop-up/slidey/electric gizmo has WOW factor... Now what would you rather show your friends!!!???

Never mind "save the wave" ..."SAVE THE POP-UPS"

Lastly, the worst thing about this is that the decision has probably already been made. It's sad, because the Corvette will lose some of it's heritage just for the sake of looking "cute"... Pah! Cute my ass!

 

[Zektor]

Damn! Mistake in first post!!!

In the first paragraph I said "as long as they make them cute"...

No way, that's incorrect... I meant to say, as long as they DON'T make them cute!!! Doh!

Cheers
Dazza

Now has been corrected!!!!

 

[78SilvAnniv]

I do and I don't like the pop ups, but I say keep 'em!

I like them when they are down, but when they are up, they don't slice cleanly through resisting air.
However, I would have to say, keep the pop-ups...because I like the overall look of the front of the vettes WITHOUT headlights showing. Not many people drive their vettes in the rain, and at night no one can see the vette for very long anyways.
Heidi

 

[CFour]

Folks, like them or not its not a C6 choice, there will be NO pop- ups on C6 no matter how many discussions there are about them in these forums. If you really have to have pop-ups better order an 04 now! C6 Isn't going to be a true Corvette after 04 anyway, so I guess GM figures the cheaper "bug eye" lights are better for them and there bottom line.

 

[Rob]

This is kind of a strong debate and there are pros and cons on each side.

The reason why the industry is moving towards non-pop up lamps is due to several reasons:

1. As powertrain technology has improved - so to has performance. As a result - pop up head lamps tend to be a drag during high speed.

A similar situation can be seen in the Lamborghini Diablo. The rear wing on a Diablo and if I'm not mistaken, the Countach has always given both cars an aggressive image. Personally, I think they look awesome rather than without, however, both cars are actually capable of higher speeds without the rear wings. This is one of the reasons why the Murcielago and Ferrari Enzo do not use spoilers - increased drag at high speed.

2. Weight. The headlight buckets and their related hardware are heavy. In this day and age automotive manufacturers are trying to trim weight, and improve fuel economy. Corvette Chief Engineer, Dave Hill has said numerous times that this was one of the goals of the C6 - get the weight out.

3. Cost. Chances are, pop up headlamps and their related hardware are probably more expensive to manufacture than standard exposed headlights.

4. Heritage. Don't forget that from 1953 - 1962 the Corvette came with exposed headlamps, so if anything, the C6 designers are going back to the Corvette's true heritage by bringing back exposed headlights.

I for one - love pop up headlamps depending on the style. I think the best that I've seen has been the C4 design. I have always liked the sleek, jet-fighter-like front end of the C3/C4/C5. Sports cars always look sleeker with pop-up head lamps in the down position. When they pop up, then that is a different story.

The C4 pop-ups don't look bad when they're exposed. I have always disliked the C5 head lamps. When they're up, they give the car a sad front end appearance. The whole front end looks like it's drooping in depression.

Now on the other side of the coin, exposed headlamps can be just as tricky to design as popups. Headlight shape, size and implementation into the overall design can, for me personally, make or break the overall appearance of the car.

Again, the perfect case in point is the Ferrari Enzo and the Lamborghini Murcielago/Gallardo.

In my humble opinion, the almond-sliver headlight designs look awful on the Enzo and Gallardo and the Murcielago - just looks butt-ugly. Another design which I never really cared for appeared on the Callaway C12. While they were extremely functional given the size of the headlamp and their capability to light the road ahead, they were, in my opinion, too big.

Exposed headlamps, cannot be too big, or too small depending upon the overall shape and flow of the front end design. They need to compliment not define.

So what exposed headlamp designs do I like? I'm fairly partial to the design that everyone has seen on the C6 artist conceptions that have been floating around the web for months, but I'd still have to see them in person first. The Ferrari 360 Modena took a little while to grow on me, but I now love them. I hate to admit it, but the Dodge Viper exposed headlamps have always been a favorite of mine as well.

So in summary, the reasons for going to non-popups are probably very good reasons if they fall into the categories I've outlined above. As for final design, I'll wait till I can actually see, touch and lick the door handle (kidding) of a C6 before I decide if I like them or not.

 

[FX GS]

How do you feel about the aftermarket non-popup kits that are on the market? Has anyone actually seen them installed on any vehicles and if so what do you think?

 

[Rob]

How do you feel about the aftermarket non-popup kits that are on the market? Has anyone actually seen them installed on any vehicles and if so what do you think?

I've seen them on the C5s, and honestly, I'm not that crazy about them. On the C5-R racecar, I think they look cool. I don't know why the difference, but maybe it has to do with the racing style hood and the overall "race" appearance of the C5-R over the standard C5.

Again, for me, it's the overall appearance.

 

[Owin]

I voted to keep the pop-ups, but now thinking about it it is one more thing to go wrong on the car. Also the drag caused by the raising of the lights will have some effect on the performance. Also I've not actually seen a set of pop-up lights, on any car that are beautiful to look at.

Anyone want to prove me wrong on the looks?

 

[CFour]

Its not bad looking but it detracts from the front end looking like a Corvette. Looks Ricerish to me.

 

[Zektor]

Ricerish?

CFour,

This is exactly what I am talking about. Now the Corvette is going to end up looking like any other sports car out there. Like I said in my first post, the decision has already been made. Sad, but true. CFour, if you have seen the C6's lights... what do they look like? Are they rounded like the Ferrari 360's or angular and aggressive looking like the Murcielargo? And extra to this, does the car still look aggressive when viewed from the front, or does the C6 now sport some stupid gaping smile?

The Corvette is not a happy car. It's a menacing animal waiting to pounce. Happy looks do not suit the Corvette. I'm buying a C5 next year to replace or go along side my current '82. If the C6 looks to cute, it will definately be a generation to skip.

God, I am hoping just one thing. I really hope that Dave Hill and his team really know what they are doing with this car. I'm not saying that I will never accept a Corvette without pop-up lights. It just scares me to think that they might get it wrong. I think the 360 modena is totally wrong at the front. God, give me 5 minutes with a biro and I could of designed a better front end... and I'm not even a car designer. But I think I have a damn good idea of what I like and the public in general.

Ever since I was a young boy and saw the first Corvette for the first time (a C3). What hit me was not the beauty of the car (which it is!), it was the sheer damn aggressiveness of the car compared to ANY other car on the road. From that day I loved Corvette's and vowed to buy one, hence the '82 in my garage. I'm besotted by them as every other car looks just plain boring. The Corvette face is angry, let's keep it that way!!!

Dave Hill, I hope you are totally and utterly correct when you say Corvette lovers everywhere will love the new C6. We've got faith in you, let's hope you have the same faith in us!

Cheers
Dazza

 

[DkBG]

I pretty much agree with everything Zektor has said on this topic . As for lights up drag , give me a break . I never felt my car slow down when I turned them on , did any of you ? As to the weight , plastic lens assemblies with plastic covers and an aluminum mounting assembly could be made almost as light in weight . Nope , as I've said before , it's a cost thing . I'd pay more for pop-ups myself . Corvette should be different than the rest , a leader not a follower . Cliff

 

[bossvette]

I have ditched the popups on my 76 in favor of rectangular lenses from a late model gm pickup. right now I have home made plexiglass covers on them I am toying with the idea of either using the stock covers or most likely making fibergalass replacements and having them drop out of the way when the lites are on so I have the origional look

 

[FX GS]

Got any photos?

 

[bossvette]

photos are here but not the best, I did not think to take photos until I had it almost complete.

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=367303

basically what I did was make a new headerbar out of 1/4x3 aluminum (mine was toast) and mount the lense assembly (with adjusters) to it and made aluminum covers for the openings I tried smoke covers first, but could not see at night. they light the road much better then stock and I have not put "bright" bulbs in yet I want to upgrade my wiiring first.

 

[FX GS]

Thanx for the photos. Very nice work. I like the look

 

[ROCKETBLOCK]

I don't think built-in headlights have to look ricerish or cute. I am for new technology. Pop ups could be old technology to hide the old ugly round and square sealed beams that used to be required. Let's move on.

 

[FX GS]

ROCKETBLOCK. I'd like to see what they look like on a C4. Anyone have any photos on a C4?

 

[MaineShark]

Here's my opinion: I like pop-ups and, despite the fact that the C1's had fixed headlights, Corvettes have had pop-ups for so long that they have become part of the Corvette image. I mean, there was also a six-cylinder, back in the day, but I think most Corvette owners now wouldn't touch a modern six-cylinder Corvette.

On the other hand, I do like the cars that have had their pop-ups removed, and been converted to fixed headlights.

I think the difference is that regular fixed lights look like "one of the herd," while the converted lights have a racing-inspired "this car means business" look.

So, I think the ideal, if GM wants to go wth fixed lights, is to try and make them look as if the car originally had pop-ups, but they were removed and replaced (or, if that causes images of bad quality, imagine that the car was designed for pop-ups, but an option was established for cars that were destined for racing). Locating the headlights as if pop-ups could be mounted in the same spot would probably do it.

Joe

 

[Justin_cv87]

I think the vette should stick with the pop ups, but if thats not what is gona happen then they should be set back like bossvette's Corvette. But i dunno how they are gona look, maby no pop ups would look good, but all i know is that i dont want the Corvette's headlights to look like a civic's.

 

[corvettecrazy]

POP UPS!!!! BUT they must be like the C4 where they can style the light to something good looking and make them aerodynamic unlike the C5's