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[Press]: Carbon Fiber For C6?? - Interview with Dave Hill

Rob

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Carbon fiber hits the highway:
DaimlerChrysler engineers use carbon fiber on the 2003 Dodge Viper, to reduce its weight.
By RHODA MIEL
Plastics News


Carbon-fiber composites are moving from the speedway to the highway in North America. The latest example is the 2003 Dodge Viper, which is using the material for door inner panels, windshield surrounds and front fender supports.

Until recently, carbon fiber has been used in applications for racing or exotic sports cars such as Ferraris. The material, a mixture of woven strands and hardened resins, is valued by racers for its high strength and low weight. It typically is used in constructing race car chassis and body components and seats. But carbon fiber's high cost has limited its use on high-volume vehicles.

Because of carbon fiber's association with racing, mass market automakers have used it or materials that look like it as trim on vehicles they want to have a sporty look. One example was the "Gallery Series" package offered on the 2001 Toyota Camry that included carbon fiber trim for the instrument panel center stack.

But more automakers are looking to expand the use of carbon fiber. Ford has produced an SVT Focus Competition concept vehicle that uses a carbon fiber hood. The bbX, the first Scion brand vehicle from Toyota, uses the material in its ground effects and rear spoiler panels.

Carbon fiber is making an appearance in a limited form on the hood of the Honda NSX Type R sold in Japan, and BMW is continuing its work in carbon fiber for a possible launch.

"We compete with those brands, and we need to have our own application for carbon-fiber panels," said Dave Hill, vehicle line executive and chief engineer for the Chevrolet Corvette, during the Society of Plastics Engineers' 2002 Automotive Composites Conference. "I've got Acura trying to pass me on the left, BMW trying to pass me on the right and the Viper trying to take a bite out of my deck lid."

Dodge executives said their use of a carbon-fiber sheet molding compound in the Viper marks one of the first production uses of the material.

The Dodge Viper has made extensive use of composite plastic panels since its introduction, using sheet-molding compound and reinforced reaction injection molding.

As DaimlerChrysler began planning for the second-generation Viper, it wanted to boost the vehicle's performance while reducing the overall weight by 200 pounds, product engineer Mike Shinedling said.

On the 2003 Viper, the carbon-fiber sheet-molding compound is used at three structural points to replace metal:

1. Two pounds of the material are used in the windshield surround.

2. Two pounds are used for inner door panels at the hinge.

3. The front fender support includes 13.5 pounds of carbon fiber material. The support provides the structural skeleton of the front of the Viper linked to the steel space frame. It holds the fender fascia and 33 other components, Shinedling said. "The entire front half of the vehicle is held up by these attachments," he said.

DaimlerChrysler worked with Quantum Composites Inc. of Bay City, Mich., to create the sheet-molding compound blend. The parts are molded by Meridian Automotive Systems of Dearborn, Mich.

"This is the highest profile, highest production car to use carbon fiber so far," Shinedling said. "We look forward to future use."

GM's performance group likewise wants to launch carbon fiber use, although the automaker is not providing any details yet, Hill said. GM's studies have taken the material beyond research, he noted, and now GM is looking at specific production opportunities.

Such opportunities probably will adapt carbon fiber to manufacturing operations more common in the auto industry than in aerospace, Hill noted.

"As the manufacturing technology gets more efficient, and the manufacturing costs are reduced, the important thing for us is to be on the edge to be able to go quickly with products that are comparative with the products that are coming from Japan and Germany," he said.

The growth in high-technology composites does not guarantee a straight shot for carbon fiber or even resin-based composites in all future performance vehicles. Molders are facing increased pressure from a surging aluminum industry.

"In (some) niche products, we're going to see quite an aluminum explosion," Hill said. "That industry has got a lot of aggressive players, a lot of dynamic activity, and there's a lot of progress being made."

Aluminum already won out at Ford, which is using the lightweight metal for the body panels on the limited-production GT sports car - a vehicle that had a composite body when it was introduced as a concept at the Detroit auto show in January - and the body of the redesigned 2004 Jaguar XJ sedan.

GM has been a strong proponent of composites, especially with the Corvette. Sheet-molding compound is the material used on today's Corvettes, the same as when it was introduced 50 years ago. The materials also will be in the body panels of the Cadillac XLR roadster, which shares its architecture with the Corvette. The roadster debuts next summer.

But Hill said when GM ran into some glitches during the ramp-up process for the XLR, it took another look at alternative materials and found that aluminum has progressed in the past two years. If GM were making the same sourcing decisions today on the XLR, he said, it might have given aluminum the nod.

"The SMC (sheet-molding compound) industry and plastic body panels, in general, have the opportunity to get a lot larger or get a lot smaller in a very short period of time," Hill warned composites engineers. "It depends on the stretch mentality and the innovative spirit and the problem-solving attitude of people in this room."
 
Does anybody else read into this that the XLR might just have a restyling instore very shortly with a new aluminum body?

We all know Bob Lutz is not thrilled with the whole arts and science them as it stands today and that this new metal application process might just give him the opportunity to restyle the XLR into what he wants it to be..

And it would differeniate the new Caddy from the Vette..

Stranger things have happened..

Might even help justify the big loser XLR as a technology leader for the entire cadillac lineup..

Think about it..

New process aluminum skin..

Attractive styling and...

supercharged Northstar..

Wouldnt' that be the way to bring Cadillac back to the forefront of design and technology..

I like the way bob Lutz thinks..no more talking arts and science ..

Just applying it to win back the title " STANDARD OF THE WORLD"
 
caddy dropped the "arts and science" theme a while back. the escalade, cts, xlr, and upcoming sport rec vehicle are the new design direction.

i like the xlr styling, and it appears some would agree as the neiman marcus xmas group of 99 sold out in 14 mins.

although an aluminum skin would be a technology leading thing, as caddy is where gm debuts most of new tech...hmm
 
Rob said:
"We compete with those brands, and we need to have our own application for carbon-fiber panels," said Dave Hill, vehicle line executive and chief engineer for the Chevrolet Corvette, during the Society of Plastics Engineers' 2002 Automotive Composites Conference. "I've got Acura trying to pass me on the left, BMW trying to pass me on the right and the Viper trying to take a bite out of my deck lid."

I didn't think that GM considered the Viper a competitor, but now they do?

Dave Hill thinks using carbon fiber will solve those problems? I would've thought that a bigger displacement would suffice...:D
 
caddy dropped the "arts and science" theme a while back. the escalade, cts, xlr, and upcoming sport rec vehicle are the new design direction. That is the arts and science theme you mentioned.. on the CTS XLR and Escalade..

I think it works on the macho type truck products..I personally believe the cars need a more sensous design similiar to the Jaguar XK series and new MB SL500..

Its just a little bit lighter...tighter and not as brutal as the certain aspects of the design on the CTS and XLR..

Rear licence plate area of the CTS as an example..or the width of the taillights on the XLR..

Of course its just my opinion so take it fwiw!

Good discussion..

Rumor is GM is switching the XLR over to metal in 2 years and that they are using a new fabrication system..

Could be the aluminum they are discussing here..

SMC for the vette is definitely the way to go..
 
you may b right about the art & science as i don't follow caddy ultra close, i had it in my head that they dropped it about when the escalade came out and used it more to promote the deville type cars.
either way, the above technologies would be cool, and a chance for improvement
 
GM does make and sell Corvettes with all carbon fiber bodies:

C5RLeM1.jpg


They have made at least 8 of them and this one is for sale for about $350,000!
 

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