Rebuild Nightmare

[omega1940]

I recently blew a head gasket on my 88 and decided to do complete rebuild. I went to a highly recommended shop and was told they had done many s/b Chevy rebuillds. I ordered parts from a local Corvette performance shop including a 383 roller assembly, ZZ11 cam, Crane rollers, etc. Also large-tube Accel runners, Accel SuperRam, Hooker headers. The heads were ported to .202. New GM hydrolic lifters, moly pushrods, 24 lb. Bosch injectors, etc., etc., etc.

Here's where the problem began. The guy who tore down the engine quit just as he got the engine apart. The new guy who reassembled the crank shaft (Clevite 77 bearings) pistons, etc. seemed to know exactly what he was doing, but when the engine was dropped back in I think he was immediately aware that he was over his head. He did not know where all the connectors went, vacuum tubes, etc.

The owner of the garage finally offered to have the car towed to the Corvette performance place in Tempe. They started looking at everything and it was a complete mess. Even the gaskets on the runners were upside down or on the wrong side. The shop carefully found all the connectors, replaced a few broken ones (I don't know if they were broken before or not). On Friday night at 11:30 p.m. we tried to fire it up. No luck. Turns out the fuel pump had died along the way. Saturday morning, new fuel pump, engine fired right up, but a coolant leak developed at the thermo housing. The gasket was replaced but it still leaked, so it must be a cracked housing. Tormorrow (Monday) they intend to put a new thermo housing on and fire it up again. When it was started yesterday (Sat. morning) it ran for a few minutes until we noticed the coolant leak. I thought the rollers sounded pretty noisy and so did the mechanic. A VERY experienced Corvette mechanic had adjusted the valves doing the zero lash, backing them off 1/4 turn or something like that.

Here's my question. Is it possible that the rollers are adjusted properly and during the engine rebuild (when the roller assembly was installed) something was done wrong. I was there when they put the crankshaft and rod/pistons in. The connecting rods sligthly hit the side of the block, which I was told is customary for a 383 modification. (bored out 30 thousandts) They ground a small space so the connecting rod would not hit the block and had 20 thousandts clearance. They manually turned the crank and it went around very smoothly.

Is it possible (anyting is possible, so I'm looking for "likely") that the lower assembly was done incorrectly somewhere along the way and the chatter in the rollers is due to a problem down below? I can't believe the guy who adjusted the rollers would not have done them perfectly. He had a remote starter hookup and would tap that to bring each roller to the right place then he adjusted each roller.

My big problem is that the new shop is chargine ME for all of the corrections to the initial shop. I gave the first shop $5k already and I'm living in horror at the thought that I'm going to have to have the new mechanic open up the entire engine again and correct a more serious problem.

Anyone got any ideas. Is it possible the rollers are not adjusted properly. The ZZll cam is listed as Duration @.050 214-227, 480 int. 518 exh. I was told this is a relatively mild cam.

When it was running it had a slight lope, and with the new headers and existing Flowmasters it sounded like it could thump a Viper.

Please give me some good news on this. I've got nearly $10,000 into this rebuild already!

Mike

 

[WhalePirot]

That valve adjustment sounds right for a hydraulic cam.

First step on the money thing, is to approach the 'old' shop owner and see how he will chip in. What did the $5k include?

Sorry to hear yer story, BTW.

Best of luck and I'd check the AZ Atty Gen.'s office of consumer (more specifically, automotive repair) section. It's nice to know how big your guns are before going into (possible) battle with the original shop.

Good luck. You're almost there, tho.

mike <<<< no lawyer

 

[Dave C. '04 Z06]

Hydraulic lifters will be noisy until they pump up with oil, especially if they are new. It depends on how long you let your engine run. If it was only a few seconds then they probably didn't have time to pump up. You need to let it run for a few minutes sometimes to let them all pump up with oil.

Another thing to check is make sure you have the right valves springs to go with that cam. I'm not sure about the L98, but the stock LT-1 springs can only handle about 0.490" lift before they start to bind. If you're running 1.6:1 rockers and your cam is speced for 1.5:1 rockers, then make sure you add about 0.030" more to the lft spec.

Also, since your engine is a roller lifter motor, no need to run it at high RPM when you start it. Just let it sit there and idle and see if the valve train quiets down after a few minutes. And at worst case, just go back and re-adjust the lifters (rocker arms) to make sure they are correct. Even experienced guys can screw up if they have too many things going on or have people who are talking to them while they're trying to work.

Also, I'd ask the guy to adjust the rockers down 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn rather than just 1/4 turn. The 1/4 turn trick was used on flat tappet cams to help reduce friction with less preload, but with a roller cam it doesn't matter and its safer to go ahead with the 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Chevrolet actually recommends 1 full turn.


Good luck....

-Dave C.

 

[omega1940]

Noisy Rockers

Dave, I appreciate your reply and the detail. As it turns out, the mechanic who put the car back together removed the left side valve cover (easier than the right side) and checked the valves and discovered the problem.

I'm not experienced in the exact language, but it seems that the shop that put the block back together did not have the heads ground to the proper depth. (or something like that) I believe he said that the intake valves were hitting the head, while the exhaust valves were not. The 1.6 rollers could be reduced to 1.5's, but he thought it would still be close.

I am about to leave to speak to the owner of the shop that assembled the block and tell him that he did not give the machine shop the correct information on what clearance we needed on the block.

I have spent $1946 just to repair the connectors and the other problems created when the first shop tried to install the rebuilt engine. Now I have to tell them they owe me the $1946 but also they will owe me another $2500 to tear down the heads, re-port or surface the heads and install new valves, springs and retainers.

Thanks again. I just knew something was done incorrectly and I guess I am relieved that the roller assemble appears to have been properly installed.

Mike

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the only safe way out of this is to tear down the engine and start over. If you have gaskets on wrong, improperly machined heads, etc., God only knows what is going on inside the beast.

My 88 blew a head gasket. Since everything is coming off the top, I went to a local company (Exotic Muscle-Tempe, AZ) and ordered some equipment.

Having followed your engine rebuild from your first post we have all watched your learning curve. You have put too much time and money into that engine to have it blow-up because somebody put it together wrong.

Even the gaskets on the runners were upside down or on the wrong side.

There is no excuse for any of this. The service manuals and info supplied with the hi-performance parts will take any qualified mechanic step by step through the assembly.

On the Racing team mechanics get changed more often than underwear. All of the manuals are laminated (to keep grease off) and available at their proper workstation. Papy, aka Mr. Yamaha and father of the R1, lives with the books in his hand, constantly double checking everything. Even on a job that is done several times a week, like changing the gear ratios, one mechanic checks and sings out the backlash and torque values while Papy nods yes or no. This is the way a garage should be run. Never settle for less.

Best of luck and I'd check the AZ Atty Gen.'s office of consumer (more specifically, automotive repair) section. It's nice to know how big your guns are before going into (possible) battle with the original shop.

Unless the first shop is willing to refund all of their labor charges and pay for whatever damage they did this might be your only recourse.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[omega1940]

Engine Rebuild

SpanishVettes, all that you say is true. I went down to the shop that created all of the problems and spoke to the owner. As I expected he is a man of integrity. I still had a balance of $1250 or so on my bill there and he agreed to "eat" that and he also agreed to pay the $2500 for redoing the heads, valves, etc.

The mechanic who is working on the rebuild now and repairing the damage, strongly suggested that I remove the engine and have the bottom end reworked because of the slopping worksmanship on the valves, etc. I told him that at this point, the owner of the first shop said that he would not pay for that. He did state, however that if the crankshaft, connecting rods or any part of the roller assemble ended up causing problems during the next 12 months that he would pay for a rebuild. I think the reason he is more confident about that crank, etc. is because he personally did most of the work, working after the shop closed. The guy who did the upper part assisted but did not direct the process.

At this point I would love to pull the engine and inspect everything again, but I cannot sink another $2000-$4000 into the process with no assurance that something is already wrong. I trust the owner of the original shop to keep his promise, and I don't think I can expect any more. If the bearings fail or the crankshaft fails, it will cost him a ton more, but I think he is willing to take the chance.

Thanks again for your continued interest. Indeed I have learned a lot by all of this. At some point I am likely to give my 88 to my 20 year old son as a graduation present in 2 years, and I would like to buy a later model ZR-1 or even a new Vette. Time will tell.

Mike

 

[corvettecrazy]

Re: Engine Rebuild

... I trust the owner of the original shop to keep his promise, and I don't think I can expect any more. If the bearings fail or the crankshaft fails, it will cost him a ton more, but I think he is willing to take the chance....Mike

I see no reason to doubt the owner of the first shop but things are always better in writing. just my 2 little pannies

 

[omega1940]

Get it in wirting

I agree. I thought of it but didn't push it. I'll stop by and "push" it a bit.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Mad-Mic]

i would definetly get it in writing!

peace of mind and i'm sure he'll understand if he is a man of his word

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

As I understand the current situation the heads have to come off. That means that as the car stands now the following is or must be done:
1. Intake, heads removed. This takes care of all of the ignition wiring, sensors, thermostat housing, upper radiator hose, all vacuum lines, alternator, etc., etc.
2. Exhaust removed and pulled far enough away from the motor for the heads to come off.

The top-end is 90% of the work the only things left holding the engine in are 2 motor mounts, the lower radiator hose, oil cooler lines, starter wiring, wire to the sensor by the oil filter and the trany bolts.

I can not believe that it would cost another $2000++ to pull the engine, flip it over, pull the oil pan and check everything out. Even if you pull all of the caps, check the inserts and mains with Plastigauge, and refit/re-torque everything, you should get change back out of a thousand.

The difference in labor should be less because the mechanic reassembling the motor will be able to work 10 times more efficient and clean. Any quality mechanic would rather build an engine on a stand in a clean environment than under the hood.

This engine properly assembled will live well over 100,000Mi. That could be well over 10 years. You need this job done right.

He did state, however that if the crankshaft, connecting rods or any part of the roller assemble ended up causing problems during the next 12 months that he would pay for a rebuild.

I see no reason to doubt the owner of the first shop but things are always better in writing. just my 2 little pannies

i would definetly get it in writing!

Not good enough. No mater how much integrity this man has he could be run-over by the #7 Buss on his way to work, be shot by a customer not as tolerant as you, or become incapable of honoring the agreement in any 1 of a thousand ways. I have on my wall a signed, notarized piece of paper worth 30 thousand Pounds Sterling, +/-$50K US. It’s only value is that of fire starter. You can’t collect from a dead man or a Bankrupt Company.

 

[omega1940]

Rebuild

I'm going to see what it will cost to check the roller assembly and then talk to the original shop and see what they say. If he says he won't pay for it there isn't much I can do. I simply can't afford another $1000 after dumping $11,233 into this thing already and it isn't running!

I'll let you know.

Mike

 

[oldace84]

This is a horror story.....should be on the Twilight Zone....you can believe that.....
What a bummer....
sorry to hear stories like this......
Hope it never happens to me!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for sharing your HORROR!!!!!!!!!!
tony

 

[omega1940]

It's getting worse

Well, just when I thought it was as bad as it can be, I have learned that some of the debris from the valves being crunched fell into the cylinders and there is some scoring. I'm having them remove the complete rotating assembly and examine the whole thing. If the cylinder walls are scored it means boring them out again (they are already 30 thousandths larger for the 383 assembly) and probably cylinder sleeves and larger pistons. I have no idea what that will cost.

I could have a monster crate motor installed and a new ZF 6 speed to replace my 4+3 for the $11,500 this has cost. The first shop has already agreed to pay $3500 but that just covers the additional costs for the NEW rebuild, not what I already paid!

I'm sick.

Mike

Here's what I have learned.

1. Find a mechanic who specializes in Corvette rebuilds and get 2-3 references to people who have used the shop for similar engines. (My new guy was rebuilding a 95 ZR1 when I walked into the shop)

2. Before doing a "ground-up" rebuild, find out what it would cost to install the type of crate motor you want.

3. Be prepared to wait a month to get the job done right. I'm already into week 7 and I am still looking at another week, maybe two.

4. Have a healthy savings account for whatever happens.

5. Expect to lose money on the car when it is sold.

6. Plan to keep it for a very long time or give it to a relative.

I"m open to other items I probably forgot.

Mike

 

[Rowdy1]

So Sorry

I've seen this all too many times. It almost always happens when too many hands are in the soup too. I'm not saying all shops are not reputable or qualified but I've learned when doing an engine, you HAVE to know the experience of the guys doing the work and almost their history with referals. If not buying a crate engine and going for a rebuild or modified, it's an art, it takes concentration and thinking by the people doing it. I'd never do just the top end of an engine, unless you want to be back in there before you should be, start from the crank and go up. Something very simple can be overlooked and wreak havoc on you, your engine, and your wallet. Keep us posted and best of luck.