serious electrical problem- NEED HELP PLEASE

[srs244]

what transpired: i was having a bit of of a problem with consistant power from the solenoid to the starter, so i decided to replace the solenoid. the symptoms were that the key wouldn't always activate the starter even though there was power to the solenoid through the starter switch and the neutral lockout (automatic, L48, 1978 ) and the gauges powered up as did all the other elecrical components (ie: headlights, etc). i disconnected the battery at both posts (+ and -) and proceeded to remove the battery line and the 2 wires with the fusable links attached to the solenoid before removing the starter itself. since i couldn't reach the "S" lead without removing the starter, that wire wasn't removed until the starter was actually unbolted and taken down. i removed the solenoid on my bench and replaced it with a new one, reassembled it and reinstalled it by reversing the order (attaching the "s" terminal before actually mounting the starter, then re-installing the battery and fusable link wire leads) . i reconnected the battery and now everything is absolutely dead. no guage activation, no starter activity, not even the unswitched stuff like the headlights. absolutely NOTHING.

i rechecked the engine ground (the cable is new and not deteriorated at all) and all connections are tight. i checked and i get a full 13 volts at the solenoid battery terminal. according to the wiring diagram, one of the fusable link wires seems to go to the fuse box, i can't figure out where the other goes.

the questions:
the fusable links at the solenoid do not appear to be burned or deteriorated. how do i check them??

where can i check the fusable link wires after they leave the solenoid (what wire is it at the fuse box?? where does the second fusable link wire go and where can i check it for power?? is there something like a main "breaker" or fuse that might have blown because the new solenoid might have been bad??

i replaced the original (old) solenoid and checked all the connections, but still the same result. obviously something in the "main line" is shorted or blown and prevents any power from getting to the fuse box, etc. even the unswitched stuff is inoperable. what should i check and where is it??

thanks for taking the time to read this and try to lend a hand. i'm very frustrated at this point.

steve

 

[ßill]

Could you have missed a wire on the battery terminal of the solenoid? I'm not sure on your car, but some GM's used that terminal as a tie point.
Good Luck

 

[srs244]

thanks, but no, all hot wires (the main battery cable and the 2 fusable link leads) are on the solenoid hot post. the appropriate starter switch/neutral switch lead is on the "s" terminal of the solenoid. those are the only connections to the solenoid on the 78 (and probably more years). those where the only connectiosn tot he solenoid previously and they were replaced in exactly the same locations. there is power (measured by meter) to the solenoid battery post from the positive side of the battery and it does tie to the 2 fusable link leads that are mounted to the same post under the same nut.

what is the method for testing the fusable links to assure they haven't been blown?? they appear intact, but i would love to know how to make sure they are.

 

[srs244]

anyone help, please??? i know there are folks here who know the electrical system inside and out and can at least provide me with some direction. please??

 

[BarryK]

let me get this straight.
you say you DO have power from the battery to the solenoid? If you hook your meter up between the solenoid hot and the solenoid grd posts are you showing power?
to test the fusible links first make sure there is power coming into those leads at one end and than check them again after the fusible section of the lead.

you are getting zero power at all now anywhere else on the car either? sorry for the basics here but is there ANY chance that when you rewired the starter you acciently reversed the battery leads to the starter posts?
you DID remember to rehook up the batter leads to the battery itself? (sorry, i HAD to ask as I've made stupid, silly mistakes like that one myself)
did you go thru and check the fuse box to make sure nothing blew any of the fuses while you were doing the wiring?

 

[srs244]

barry,

the following exists:
1. battery connections tight and correct
2. as tested with a meter, power at the solenoid "hot" terminal post
3. engine ground cable (brand new) connected, tight, and producing a good ground
4. 2 fusable link leads connected to the "hot" solenoid terminal as prescribed
5. ignition starter switch lead (through the neutral lockout switch) connected to the solenoid "S" terminal
6. removed the "new" solenoid and replaced it with the original (in the event the new one was defective) to restore conditions to pre-installation. still absolutely no power to ANYTHING. there are no switched accessories showing power and there are no unswitched accessories (ie: the headlights) showing any power. NOTHING functions.

can someone tell me where the fusable link lead that goes to the fusebox is actually located at the fusebox and what color wire it is??

 

[GerryLP]

barry,

the following exists:
1. battery connections tight and correct
2. as tested with a meter, power at the solenoid "hot" terminal post
3. engine ground cable (brand new) connected, tight, and producing a good ground
4. 2 fusable link leads connected to the "hot" solenoid terminal as prescribed
5. ignition starter switch lead (through the neutral lockout switch) connected to the solenoid "S" terminal
6. removed the "new" solenoid and replaced it with the original (in the event the new one was defective) to restore conditions to pre-installation. still absolutely no power to ANYTHING. there are no switched accessories showing power and there are no unswitched accessories (ie: the headlights) showing any power. NOTHING functions.

can someone tell me where the fusable link lead that goes to the fusebox is actually located at the fusebox and what color wire it is??

SRS,

A continuity check of the fusible link wire(s) should be able to tell you whether the link is good or broken. My multimeter has a sound feature to let one know that there is continuity.

Also, check your courtesy/clock fuse.

GerryLP:cool

 

[srs244]

gerry
the fusable links were tested last evening and they both seem to be ok. there is power on both sides of the links themselves, so they haven't been blown. i will check the fuse as you suggested, but i did check the fuse box and nothing seemed to be blown. i will definitely take a much closer look at it however. i just can't seem to find an explaination for the completely "dead" electrical system even though power seems to be passed along to the main system from the starter motor solenoid connection.

 

[Bob Chadwick]

Is it possible that you damaged the connector when you pulled the fusible link from the back of the fuse box? Or does it seperate elsewhere? That would seem to explain absolutely no power.

 

[srs244]

bob,
i haven't done anything at the fuse box what so ever. according to the wiring diagram i have, there are only 2 fusable links and they are both located at the solenoid. i appreciate your suggestion. is the link on the firewall (engine) side, or on the interior side of the fusebox?? is it easily identifiable??

thanks

 

[GerryLP]

SRS,

I was just looking at my own starter (81 Vette), and I also looked my two fusible links and the switch lead. On my Vette, all the starter wires are together on a harness and end-up at connector C403 and connect to C100. The switch lead is supposed to be purple, but on mine, it is only purple from C100 and on. The small segment that bridges the starter has a brown wire. The C100 goes all the way to the fuse panel at a location on the firewall and below the master brake cylinder location. C115 connects near there as well, and this connector is the one used to tie the alternator.

Anyway, it is possible that the "S" wire may be broke from holding the starter dangling during the removal. So check the "S" wire for continuity. You can make a jumper wire (looks like 10-12 gage wire) from the "S" post on the solenoid and the connector for your "S" wire at the firewall. Before connecting, make sure that the key and cylinder are at "off", and transmission on neutral or park.

GerryLP:cool

 

[Bob Chadwick]

bob,
i haven't done anything at the fuse box what so ever. according to the wiring diagram i have, there are only 2 fusable links and they are both located at the solenoid. i appreciate your suggestion. is the link on the firewall (engine) side, or on the interior side of the fusebox?? is it easily identifiable??

thanks

I misunderstood you. I thought you were telling me that it connected to the fusebox.

I have my electrical troubleshooting manual (late model 77) in front of me now. It shows one of the fusible links splicing into a red wire that ends with the alternator and along the way has splices for the high speed blower, fuse box and the underhood lights. All of these wires are red as well.

The other one splices into a red and white wire that goes to the light switch.

I can scan the page if you need it.

 

[srs244]

bob,

thanks. i have the same wiring diagram for the 78 and that's what it shows also. i was hoping that there was some sort of "master" fusable link that i might have blown that would basically render the electrical system "ddead" in appearance. i have power from the battery to the solenoid and then back throught the fusable links at the solenoid. i have to check the termination points of the "link" wires and see if i can get power at the fuse box, etc. i plan on doing that tomorrow afternoon when i get a bit of time.

gerry, i was very careful never to have the starter and solenoid dangling as you put it. i have a lift and i was able to remove the starter and rest it on the ramp without stressing the "s" terminal wire at all. either way, even with that wire out of the equation, there should still be power to the non switched accessories at least, i would think. i obviously have some break in the main electrical circuit somewhere that is giving the impression of a car without a battery installed. i even thought it might be the alarm malfunctioning (even though it hasn't worked ever that i know of), so i tried to activate it and then de-activate it with the drivers side key, but there was no change in condition.

i'm still confused, lol.

according to the diagram i have it appears that tehre is a circuit breaker in the headlamp switch. i am wondering if the switch went bad, would that prevent current from flowing through the system. that's another check for tomorrow.

thanks for all the help and suggestions. it is still very frustrating.

 

[GerryLP]

....gerry, i was very careful never to have the starter and solenoid dangling as you put it. i have a lift and i was able to remove the starter and rest it on the ramp without stressing the "s" terminal wire at all.

SRS, I didn't mean to imply that you were careless. Heavens know that I screw things often (due to my impatience). The "S" wire should be checked for continuity.

...either way, even with that wire out of the equation, there should still be power to the non switched accessories at least, i would think. i obviously have some break in the main electrical circuit somewhere that is giving the impression of a car without a battery installed.

Lets eliminate one problem at the time.
>>>>Does your car starts?
If not, then get one of those remote starter switches and see if the car starts. All the other accessories help or prevent engine start from the cylinder lock and switch in the steering wheel, so if at least you can start the car using the remote switch, then we know for sure that the battery/starter circuit is fine.

>>>>If engine running, is the "BAT" light on?
If so, then we could have a problem on the branch wires for the alternator.

...thanks for all the help and suggestions. it is still very frustrating.

I find electrical problems the most frustrating as well. Slowly but surely we can fix this problem.

GerryLP:cool

 

[mkapp7879]

Do you have power at the battery terminal on the alternator?

 

[srs244]

without a doubt electrical problems are the most frustrating.

since there is power to the hot terminal on the solenoid, jumping it to the "s" terminal will activate the starter motor, however, there is no power anywhere else. i have begun tracing wires, and i'm certain that something between the solenoid and the fusebox is disconnected or broken as there is no power to the hot side of the headlight switch which should be (at least according to the wiring diagrams i have) hot all the time, as it is direct from the solenoid hot terminal which shows 13 volts as do both sides of the fusable links, so i know power is passing back to the system from that point. it's just not making it to the fusebox or the headlight switch, which leads me to the conclusion that something in that main harness is bad in some way.

thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

 

[Bob Chadwick]

What's confusing to me is absolutley no power. You have two seperate fusible links coming off the solenoid and neither end have power. If it was one of the links you would think there would be power at the termination of the other.

 

[GerryLP]

anyone help, please??? i know there are folks here who know the electrical system inside and out and can at least provide me with some direction. please??

And there is nothing connected to the "M" post on the solenoid, right?

GerryLP:cool

 

[srs244]

no there isn't anything connected to the other solenoid terminal. after tracing the wiring from the solenoid outward, i discovered a bad connector in the harness that contained the 2 hot leads (fusable link lines) to the main electrical system. what must have happened was that while disconnecting the leads to the solenoid and moving them out of the way to remove the starter motor, the connector (located behind the distributor) which must have been weak to begin with, was moved and faulted. after disassembling it as best i could, and cleaning with electrical contact cleaner and re-assembling it, the circuits were completed and functional once again. i guess almost 30 years of use and heat finally caught up with that connector and even the slightest movement of it maded it fail even though it looked perfectly ok.

i really appreciate all the input and time everyone who helped me out put into my problem. it made dealing with this problem and it's ultimate solution a lot easier to deal with. electrical problems can certainly be a real pain.

 

[Bob Chadwick]

Glad you got it worked out.