Shorty Headers, worth it?

[legacy76]

Gang, looking to remove my rams horns and replace with direct header replacements like McJacks headers.

I have an Allens Side Exhaust kit on my car now so i do not want to have to modify it.

Does anyone have feedback on shorty headers? Worth the effort?

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[LLC5]

Shorty headers will improve your performance a little since you have the old style cast iron manifolds now. In the later model Vette's (LS engines) they already come with a version of shorty headers and I doubt if you would see any difference, you would need to go to long tubes to get any noticeable gains which opens up a whole other can of worms with OBD2 and emissions. Good luck with it.

 

[kpic]

For what you will spend; add some more $$ and buy a set of long tubes.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

On a stock engine, waste of money.

 

[Mac]

On a stock engine, waste of money.

^^^^Agreed^^^^

Check out how many old racers use rams horn exhaust manifolds on their cars. There's a reason.

Mac

 

[frank_nesta]

McJacks headers are a good choice for shorty headers. But, it is a personal choice. Headers or no headers. Really your decision.

 

[kpic]

On a stock engine, waste of money.

Due to emission testing required on 97 or later in my state adding headers is a pain. A header's connection points are farther downstream so the exhaust gas is cooler. Yes, I am aware that my state allows a couple of not ready states and I know it can be hidden from the state; but not a dealer.

I'm interested in LSx, so what follows is for LSx. An engine is nothing but a big air pump; more fuel and air in needs more exhaust out.

Judging by dyno sheets published at a variety of Corvette and LS forums; naturally aspirated engine gains are in the 20-30 RWHP range. This is dyno data; not my opinion and a quick search of the web with yield anyone the same results. Some engines respond slightly better and a dyno doesn't have an opinion.
For the price for a set of quality stainless steel headers, high flow CATs and axle back exhaust, they are not a great bang for the buck. Adding cam, heads, etc. increases that dramatically.
I go back to the days of hanging up headers in the barn and spraying the inside and outside with VHT paint from the exhaust side. Then, flipping them and spraying from the collector side. Results: they still rusted.

A quick con would be of course they measured an increase; the engine was tuned on a dyno. This is the only "pure stock" header install with no other changes to tune or intake I found with a quick search:
C7 Corvette Stingray Headers Dyno Video - LG Motorsports - YouTube
"Very first 2014 Stingray Corvette to have Long Tube headers installed and dyno tested. Car is running with the stock GM tune file in it still, and stock air cleaner assembly. Approx 30hp and 45 ftlbs of torque gains with no other changes than the LG Motorsports Super Pro headers"

Doing the cost to RWHP gain math says ouch.

Independent header testing- ARH Longtubes/Pfadt Tri Y/Kooks Longtubes- Results Inside - Page 3 - Corvette Forum

An interesting point was Vengeance Racing reported zero loss with high flow CATs as compared to non-catted.

 

[Hib Halverson]

I would not state flatly that shorty headers are a waste of money but whether or not they are a true performance enhancement depends on what you have for exhaust manifolds now.

A well-designed set of shortys will be better, IMO, than a set of stock manifolds with the small outlets.

However, if you have a set of the older cast iron manifolds with the large outlets, typical of high-performance small-blocks in cars with 2 ½ exhaust systems and the heat-riser valve has been eliminated, I think a set of shorty headers would have a tough time beating that set up.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

The OP has an otherwise stock '76 L82 9:1 compression feeding into a power-robbing set of GM repro sidepipes. Headers are way down the list of bang for bucks upgrades.

 

[RedHot85Vette]

The OP has an otherwise stock '76 L82 9:1 compression feeding into a power-robbing set of GM repro sidepipes. Headers are way down the list of bang for bucks upgrades.

Hi, I hope you're feeling good today. I bought a '85 Vette, RED, in February, 20th, days later, I was in the hospital getting surgery on my back, (again! broken hardware from the previous surgery) so I only drove it once the day I bought it. I had my wife park it on the lawn so I could at least see it and hear it. I had her do that a few times since then.

My obnoxious neighbor's Dad, our mobile home park manager of sorts, who used to bother us all the time, until my wife threatened to kick his butt, and the landlord of the place told him to leave us alone forever... he went out and bought a Corvette for his very adult son who also lives here, right next to me, in the new gigantic trailer home that we call "The Tower", what he got from his daddy as well... so he got his koppykat Vette about a week or less ago. I actually think my new neighbor, the son of king of the park, is a nice guy. It would be nice to have a neighbor to talk Vette with.

I'm disabled at the moment with 13 fusions going on. I'm not aloud outside, and couldn't make it to the front door never mind outside, so I can't walk my dogs past th and see what it really is. I only saw it once, but I think it's a mid to late 70s. No chrome bumpers, rounded rear end... it has a set of side pipes too, I think they were only a real option in '69 (RPO N14)... and I wondered about your comment about them being power robbing. They sure look cool, but couldn't you burn your leg on them getting out of the cockpit? Aren't they just big long empty pipes, with relatively not much pipe between them and the exhaust manifold?

And what if you had no "devices", like cats, and resonators and mufflers, between the headers and the rear end, would that be power robbing too? One more question, maybe... doesn't the engine/ECM, as per the engineering department's design, expect a certain amount of back pressure, or scavenging, or O2 Sensors, or whatever... in my defense, myself, being disabled, and taking a ton of meds, opiates and whatever... I've been trying to learn some things about these cars. Old magazines, YouTubes, books, DVD's, Netflix, Old dealer handouts, and so on. These are Great Cars by the way! The Positive Data, comments, reviews, etc... overwhelmingly overwhelms the negative data.

When You say "Headers are way down the list of bang for bucks upgrades", are you saying that they're Not Good Upgrades for the money (don't forget eBay), and that for the amount of money a person might pay for Headers, that person should take that money and use it for better "bang for the buck" upgrades... Could you list here what those might be? You don't have to be specific about the upgrades, for example: ignition coil, spark plug wires, spark plugs, windshield wipers, etc... But Hopefully you can be specific, provide some links maybe, Especially for things like plugs & wires, there being a gazillion choices. What, if anything, will give better performance than OEM, for all the non-racer types, but who like to think they are, and would like their cars to take off like rockets, and make their engine bays look cooler at the same time, like Me?

If your day ain't goin' so good, I hope it gets Vetter.

John

 

[toobroketoretire]

The OP has an otherwise stock '76 L82 9:1 compression feeding into a power-robbing set of GM repro side pipes. Headers are way down the list of bang for bucks upgrades.

"Way down" is an understatement. They may look cool but on a muffled street engine they don't produce any more power than fuzzy dice hanging from a rear view mirror. People have forgotten headers have to be open to do any good and then it's only a small amount over inexpensive exhaust cut outs. Jeg's sells all kinds of cut outs so if you want a bit more power when you're away from town I suggest you look into them.

 

[toobroketoretire]

When it comes to exhausting the hot gasses the "shorty" headers are the equivalent of the factory manifolds you see on most engines now days. The runners are separated for the first 12" or so to prevent the pulses from crashing into each other. In the European countries they are known as "steel tubing exhaust manifolds" but in America they are called "headers" and claimed to be BIG power makers (thanks to advertising). Uh uh, they are just steel tubing exhaust manifolds with a fancy name so they can be sold for a lot more money. Of road racing engines that don't require mufflers use the "long tube" exhaust manifolds because they produce a little bit more power at high rpm's.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Hi, I hope you're feeling good today. I bought a '85 Vette, RED, in February, 20th, days later, I was in the hospital getting surgery on my back, (again! broken hardware from the previous surgery) so I only drove it once the day I bought it. I had my wife park it on the lawn so I could at least see it and hear it. I had her do that a few times since then.

My obnoxious neighbor's Dad, our mobile home park manager of sorts, who used to bother us all the time, until my wife threatened to kick his butt, and the landlord of the place told him to leave us alone forever... he went out and bought a Corvette for his very adult son who also lives here, right next to me, in the new gigantic trailer home that we call "The Tower", what he got from his daddy as well... so he got his koppykat Vette about a week or less ago. I actually think my new neighbor, the son of king of the park, is a nice guy. It would be nice to have a neighbor to talk Vette with.

I'm disabled at the moment with 13 fusions going on. I'm not aloud outside, and couldn't make it to the front door never mind outside, so I can't walk my dogs past th and see what it really is. I only saw it once, but I think it's a mid to late 70s. No chrome bumpers, rounded rear end... it has a set of side pipes too, I think they were only a real option in '69 (RPO N14)... and I wondered about your comment about them being power robbing. They sure look cool, but couldn't you burn your leg on them getting out of the cockpit? Aren't they just big long empty pipes, with relatively not much pipe between them and the exhaust manifold?

And what if you had no "devices", like cats, and resonators and mufflers, between the headers and the rear end, would that be power robbing too? One more question, maybe... doesn't the engine/ECM, as per the engineering department's design, expect a certain amount of back pressure, or scavenging, or O2 Sensors, or whatever... in my defense, myself, being disabled, and taking a ton of meds, opiates and whatever... I've been trying to learn some things about these cars. Old magazines, YouTubes, books, DVD's, Netflix, Old dealer handouts, and so on. These are Great Cars by the way! The Positive Data, comments, reviews, etc... overwhelmingly overwhelms the negative data.

When You say "Headers are way down the list of bang for bucks upgrades", are you saying that they're Not Good Upgrades for the money (don't forget eBay), and that for the amount of money a person might pay for Headers, that person should take that money and use it for better "bang for the buck" upgrades... Could you list here what those might be? You don't have to be specific about the upgrades, for example: ignition coil, spark plug wires, spark plugs, windshield wipers, etc... But Hopefully you can be specific, provide some links maybe, Especially for things like plugs & wires, there being a gazillion choices. What, if anything, will give better performance than OEM, for all the non-racer types, but who like to think they are, and would like their cars to take off like rockets, and make their engine bays look cooler at the same time, like Me?

If your day ain't goin' so good, I hope it gets Vetter.

John

John,

Sorry to hear about your health. Get well soon so that you can enjoy your Corvette.

Regarding the factory C3 sidepipes, they were designed for 'show' and not for 'go'. They're more complex in construction than just a straight pipe and end up being more restrictive than standard under car exhaust. The actual pipe is hidden behind an insulated cover which keeps people from burning their legs.

As for your C4, keep in mind that 1985 was still in the smog years where performance was not the leading feature as it was in the 60s and is today. The smog devices are not really the main issue. You could throw them all away and gain only a few HP. Adding all the add-on after market goodies you've mentioned above would also make little to no difference.

The basic problem is that the engine was not built internally for performance- relatively low compression, a mediocre cam, so-so heads etc. Unless those shortcomings are addressed, HP levels will remain dismally low.

 

[kpic]

Long tube header comparisons.

Stock; but a tuned C7:
"Of course, we also had to get it on our in-house chassis dyno to make some baseline pulls and get inside the factory E92 ECU for some tuning. Stock, the C7 (manual 7-speed) put down a respectable 423-rwhp and 417 lb-ft of torque. With tuning we picked up 25-rwhp and 34 lb-ft of torque, which you can REALLY feel on the street. Final numbers were 448-rwhp and 451 lb-ft of torque, which is impressive for an otherwise STOCK "base model" Corvette."

VR Stingray - Build thread (Pics, dyno, updates!) - Corvette Forum

American Racing:
"Dyno Results: Peak #s from our baseline jumped from 511/442 to 519/458 along with a noticeable increase in torque in the lower RPMs.."

Kook's and Pfadt:
"Again, Peak #s were close with Kooks coming in at 516RWHP/449RWTQ and Pfadts #s coming in at 511RWHP/442RWTQ.... From 3000RPM to approximately 3800RPM the Pfadt system actually has 25 to 30lb ft advantage over the Kooks system, but the Kooks system averages approximately 10rwhp/10rwtq more than the Pfadt system from 4700RPM and up"

Independent header testing- ARH Longtubes/Pfadt Tri Y/Kooks Longtubes- Results Inside - Corvette Forum

 

[toobroketoretire]

Sorry but a header vendor performing dyno testing with a financial gain in the outcomes doesn't count as "independent" dyno testing. Only a disinterested 3rd party dyno testing with NO financial gain would be considered to be valid.

 

[toobroketoretire]

When it comes to exhaust manifolds "shorty headers" are about as good as good can get. They get the spent gasses from the cylinders moving in the right direction without interfering with each other and that's all you can ask for when an exhaust system is required.

 

[kpic]

As they charge list price for parts, plus labor and a dyno tune. That is if one takes the car to them. I doubt Corvette owners all over the nation will drive to Cumming, GA for a set of headers and a tune. So where is their financial gain? Other than your imagination??
There are quite a few really talented gear heads on this site. Who build engines and know what they are doing. What I've noticed they aren't wasting their time on you. I was being stubborn; however, now I will join them and ignore you.

 

[RedHot85Vette]

Gang, looking to remove my rams horns and replace with direct header replacements like McJacks headers.

I have an Allens Side Exhaust kit on my car now so i do not want to have to modify it.

Does anyone have feedback on shorty headers? Worth the effort?

Shorty Headers will make your engine compartment look nicer. There's some value in that, especially if you ever want to sell it. Car manufacturers spend Trazillions of dollars on aesthetics, because it helps them sell cars.

Shorty Headers will lighten the load of your front end. If you lighten the load of your front end, and find ways to lighten the load of the rest of your car, your car with the same unchanged Horsepower will be faster. Put a BigBlock on the back of your car and you'll get the picture.

I'd get 'em if I had to for some reason, or maybe if I got a boxed set at a yard sale for $5 bucks. I'm just an amateur, but I guess maybe there might be a reason why long tubes wouldn't work out for you. I don't know anything about the cost of these things. Although I know the chinese are dumping bunches of them on the market for dirt. Think of yourself as an artist. An engine bay artist, sculpturist, or whatever... and make the bay what you'd like it to be, as you see it, in your cast iron mind.

I'm pretty sure you'll get some performance value from them Shorties over them Heavy Ugly Cast Iron Leaches. Pull up some Images on Google. Search up some Ram Horns. Then Pull up some Manifolds from the Vettes of the early 80s, C4 generation, and then some from eBay, Amazon, and the Hot Rod places. Do some comparisons. I don't want to influence you about them cast iron wart hogs but I'd lose the Ram Horns even if I put nothing on that block.

But think about how you want your engine bay to look like. Maybe the shorties work for your vision. Ask the Car! Meditate upon it. What would the car want? Relax and let the Force guide you.

You have a Beautiful Car! A Very Beautiful Car that has withstood the ravages of time. I believe it deserves The Best, whatever you determine that to be.

You have what is alike the gorgeous white horse of a Good Hearted, Honorable, Courageous White Knight... give him a Great Long (did I say "Long") Sharp Bejeweled Trusty Sword to carry with Him.

Best Luck, Health, and Regards to You & Yours,

John

 

[Tom Bryant]

You could buy a pair of original Corvette ones then you would be sure that the side pipes would fit. Here are my '81 manifolds on my '69 stepside after I removed the heat shields, AIR pipes and coated them wit Eastwood Stainless Exhaust Coating. '81s are 2" outlet. "82 and newer are 2.5" Got mine off Ebay for $35. and they looked like crap before I bead blasted them.

 

[RedHot85Vette]

Gotta Love Eastwood! Just what I Want to Do! Looks Awesome!

You could buy a pair of original Corvette ones then you would be sure that the side pipes would fit. Here are my '81 manifolds on my '69 stepside after I removed the heat shields, AIR pipes and coated them with Eastwood Stainless Exhaust Coating. '81s are 2" outlet. "82 and newer are 2.5" Got mine off Ebay for $35. and they looked like crap before I bead blasted them.

View attachment 23139

Thanks for this info Man! That's just what I want to do! I was gonna ask or make a post if I could take the sheilds off. I'm very New/GuyWithFirstVette and Chevy Small Block. Wanted both since I was born. I used to tell my wife about it all the time. The C4 Vette is Perfect for Me, It's "Spine Friendly".

I believe that "Manifold" is a "Shorty Header" in disguise. Dave McLellan, (chief engineer for the Corvette from 1975 until his retirement in 1992), I'm sure, was building a Race Car that he could sell out of any dealer to anybody. Something you could drive over to the track, win the race, then drive home, give the keys to Mom, so she could cruise around town, maybe show off and visit some friends. Like what Callaway did with his 254.7 MPH Sledgehammer. It had all the normal accessories and even AC. His guys drove it 750 miles to the race track, ran it 254.7 MPH, then drove it back home... with not one malfunction. Usually a car like that, that fast, ends up with something breaking and it's trailered to and fro from the track.

McClellan used the best of the best, state of the art stuff, to build that '84 Corvette. The front bumper got a hall of fame induction by the plastics industry. Afterwards, little by little, all other car companies were using it too. He also made improvements (Horse Power, Handling, Everything) every year, til his stock/base Corvette could be driven out of any dealers lot, drive over to the Pro Showroom Stock Race, running the AC on a hot day, and beat the hell out of any car, especially those European Cars, like the Porsche 944 Turbo. Michael Antonick, author of the Corvette bible, the "Black Book" said of the 1984 Corvette: "In Fact, the cornering capability of the new Corvette was nearly beyond belief." The New Corvette won every race from '85 - '87, and then it became a Corvette only race.

All the Euro-cars, including Porsche, dropped out because they knew it was a waste of time and money to try to beat the Vette in that race. It became a Corvette only race after '87. I believe and I'm pretty sure, by making and including this Part a "Part" of that extreme winning performance was that Short "Tubular FreeFlowing Manifold (ie. Shorty Header) ~ JvB. That's my thought right there.

Here's something about Horsepower and Exhaust Flow. In '88 and '89, according to Mike, Horsepower ratings were either 240 or 245, "the latter for coupes with 3.07:1 axle ratios", But... "The Extra 5 Horsepower came from Less Restrictive Mufflers". Something to think about.

I'm thinking about getting those muffler eliminator pipes and see what happens. I listened to them on YouTube and I found a good Tube that did many Before & After segments. Some said that they didn't sound very noisy as they expected them to be. One guy had a great YouTube where he did the whole thing with a mounted video camera, maybe a GoPro or whatever. He started the car in his garage, drove all around town, some roads where he could paste it a little and you could see the Speedometer and listen to the sound... it didn't sound that noisy to me. I thought maybe a couple of those tin can $20 dollar turbo mufflers or glass packs would sound about the same. The Eliminators could be had brand new with all the install hardware, and shiny stainless steel tips, for $185 bucks/shipped (eBay).

A Fantastic book to read for learning about the engineering and history and suchof the Corvette is the "Illustrated Corvette Buyer's Guide", by Michael Antonick (also author of The Black Book).

I Love Eastwood. I was just looking at their catalog yesterday. I have several of their coatings. They have every kind of specialized coatings. They have Great Kits for doing powder coating, and different types of metal coatings, air brushings.

Your manifolds look Very Nice, Beautiful, Super Job! Did you notice any sound difference after installing them? I don't think I'd remove anything, like AIR pipes or anything as I think maybe the performance of the car might be affected. The computer might get upset about it if I started cutting things off. My 31 year old Corvette, base as Base, stock as Stock, All GM parts, 119,000 miles, runs like it just left the showroom and I believe it could and wants to fly 150 MPH as claimed. Another thing, regarding it's superb handling, if a baby suddenly appeared in your lane, I believe at least a C4 Corvette is what you'd want to be driving.

I discovered the muffler eliminators and they're pretty cool for sound, and FreeFlow, and I believe they would add some horsepower to my '85, although I'm not going to be racing ever so my thing is about looks... and that's a lot of Fun ebay/amazon shopping for me.

The muffler eliminators are not cool looking, of course, like the sidepipes, although they do come with nice stainless steel tips built in. The sidepipes have been described as power robbing since I guess they're like big long mufflers. I don't really care about that either. The Sidepipes sound good and look good, on the Corvettes I've seen them mounted on, which are usually older C3 Vettes. I'm not sure how a C4 would look with sidepipes and if they would make it harder to get out of the car. I'll have to Google and see if I can find some images of C4's with sidepipes.

I'm going to do what you did with your manifolds and if necessary take a Dremel tool to remove any warts or ridges from the outside and smooth out the inside as much as I can as well. I read the manual! It looks like a job to get those things out and back in. I'll have to call around and see if I can find someone to help me with the job. Do the removal, bead blasting, and re-install. I can do the refinishing. Those types of jobs are history for me. I believe my very compromised spine would never allow such activities. I dunno. I'll have to get the manual, pop the clam up, and give things a good eyeball. If there's a lot of bending involved, forget it. I'll have to use my credit card tool to get the job done.

In Short, so to speak, I believe if Mr. Dave McClellan thought they, those Shorty Looking Tubular Manifolds were good for his engine, then they're good enough for mine. Save me at least the cost of buying new headers and what not. I'd just like to have mine looking as pretty as yours.

Later!

John