Starting problem with my '87.

[dr3283]

I jumped pins A & E and bipped the starter.....it kicked in.
I think this means the Relay is bad.......correct???
Should I go ahead and do the bench test on the relay to be sure this is the problem?????
Would this also cause the erratic problems with the SECURITY light??

 

[vigman]

No

It might mean your control ( vats ) is not happy..

The security light is another issue.. we will deal with that next.

So do the bench test to check the relay COIL next.

Vig~

 

[dr3283]

OK.....did the bench test.....pulled the relay.....grounded D and put 12+ on the C.....it clicks each time which indicates it seems to be kicking in.....

 

[dr3283]

Vigman......put the relay back in and with the relay in place again, I jumped the E to A (Yellow to Drk Green/White).....blipped the switch to start and it kicked in. I went ahead and pulled the jumper out and cranked it again......this time it started.....for the first time in days.....so I'm lettin' it run for a bit to recharge the battery and just to hear it purr.......lol
Guess that says the VATS is happy (for right now) and the starter enable relay is OK (for now).
Should I start looking at the ALDL now to see what codes I've got? Want to be sure I'm right if so....you said to jump the A & B pins....first two on the top right from sitting in the driver seat?
Thanks again for all your advice.....I feel like I'm at least learning lots even though I haven't solved it yet.

 

[dr3283]

I've shut it down and restarted it about 5-6 times.....starts every time.....just like I fixed something.....lol But I know better!!!!

I'm shuttin' down for the night.....its almost midnight here and I've been at this beast since about 10am.....I'll wait and check things over in the morning and see if it still starts......ha

I'm not about to put it back together yet!!!!!!

Thanks for the guidance! Dave

 

[Nige]

Here we go again...!

OK! So the last few days have lulled me into a sense of security and "at last, no more problems". Ha! Ha!

So, today I take the car out this morning - no problems. Go shopping - no problems. Move it a couple of times to let family etc. off of the driveway - no problems. Go to move it a third time - NO START!!!!

What the h*ck! I got my trust old jump leads out, plugged it up and guess what... NOTHING!!

So, I jumped it off of my daughter's car - started like a dream!

So, one or two things come to mind...

1) It's not actually an earthing problem.

2) When I stopped it the time it refused to start again, as I turned the key to the 'Off' position, I noticed a very slight resistance. Normally it is as smooth as silk, but this time I seem to remember having to use a very slight pressure to get the key to turn all the way.

3) When I jumped it off of my daughter's car, I heard a very distict 'relay click' just before the car started - something I haven't noticed before.

So, although I know I can get the car started, I really don't know what exactly is causing the problem. I still believe it to be an electrical problem, but I've run out of places to look. Any further suggestions (other than a pint of petrol and a lighter) would be gratefully received.

By the way, the weather here is up in the mid-seventies at the moment (a positive heatwave) - jut when I can't rely on the car again!

Seeya!

Nige.

 

[dr3283]

Hey Nige.....sorry to hear your problem is back. I'm afraid I'm not much help on this either.....but I'm learning tons. I went through a series of things last night as directed by Vigman and finally got mine started after several very frustrating days. It seemed to be the starter enable relay behind the DIC panel. When I followed Vigman's directions (on the previous threads) and bypassed the relay it cranked over. He then had me bench test the relay and I could hear it click.....so I put it back in and its started about 10-15 times in a row. Don't know whether it was stuck or the VATS was acting up or what??? Don't think the relay was the real problem based on what Vigman was saying but it did get me a step or two further. My next "trial" this evening (I hope) is to follow his directions on how to look at the codes and see if that tells me anywhere. If I ever nail mine down, I'll be sure to let you know. It seems like you have already replaced a lot of things I have checked and double-checked. I didn't want to replace anything until I was absolutely convinced it was bad......so far I haven't found the "bad" part.
Let us know your progress and Good Luck!

 

[dr3283]

Just wanted to let you know I have tried mine about 10 times today just to see.....it started every time without fail.
Next question.......should I go ahead and bridge the ALDL and check the codes????? Will this give me the history of what component failed or ?????

 

[vigman]

Ok the CLICK should happen.. that's the starter relay

for VATS pulling in.. which it SHOULD DO!

As far as pulling the codes.. YES do that!


I suspect of BOTH your guys starter enable relays!


Vig~

 

[dr3283]

Vigman......just to let you know mine has continued to start again this morning......about 5 or 6 times.
I'm going after a starter enable relay this morning and then start to pull codes off the ALDL before I replace it.
Looks like we're in for some heavy duty "Oklahoma" type weather this evening so it will force me back inside to work on the Vette.
Thanks again for your advice.
One final question though ---- if it is the starter enable relay, would that also be the cause of the strange happenings with the SECURIRITY light on the DIC.....or is that another problem altogether?

Dave

 

[Nige]

Success? I hope so...

Latest development...

Went back "under the dash" to check previous work - particularly the newly-fitted starter switch that Joel sent over for me.

Found that I made a mistake when re-fitting and had left the rear stud loose - allowing the whole assembly to move. Re-positioned it, checked the actuator bar didn't snag etc., re-tightened everything and all now seems to be OK in that area.

Just one more thing to sort out now...

The neutral/park inhibitor may also be playing up as, every so often when I switch the ignition off, it won't allow me to turn the key all the way to the "Off" position to remove the key. Moving the gearstick in and out of Park a few times seems to free it up. Of course, this IS a Corvette, so it might be something completely different!!!

I'm off to New Zealand for three weeks from Thursday and so won't have much chance to do anything else with it until I get back.

Good luck with your problem-solving and Happy Easter to all!

Nige.

Oh! Just one more thing... Right-hand headlight motor has just packed up! Don't ya just love it!!!

 

[vigman]

Nige

The "Key Out" problem is different than the switch( electrical ) problem.. the center button ( in shifter ) needs to come ALL the way up, before it moves a detent out of the way, to let the cable that allows the key to rotate all the way back. Pop the push button cap and squirt some of your favorite lube down the shaft... that will fix that issue.


Vig~

 

[Nige]

Thanks Vig~. I'll try that before I dig any further.

Nige.

 

[wwood]

I experienced your frustration on this problem for the first time this weekend, while on a trip no less. No start, but power to every where else is good. Starter and solenoid is good. The car started after I jiggled the wires under the drivers side dash (probably not the real solution). It worked for awhile then did the problem came back (same solution).

Thinking the VATS was causing the problem I did not lock the car. Since then it has not happened. Once home I tried to make the problem happen by locking the car - no luck.

The only thing I noticed (other than what others have said already) was that my problem happened after the weather was a constant rain or drizzle. It seldom rains where I live so rain is a novelty for my car. Does the rain/moisture thing ring a bell with anyone else?

Tonight I will wash the car and try to get water to flow down the driver's side window into the key lock area an see if I can make the problem re-occur.

 

[rockytoptilidie]

I'm in Texas, so the rain thing didn't cause mine (but ironically, it is raining now). I'm thinking that the wires under the dash MAY be a problem, because I've hit mine before, and it wouldn't start. Since I grounded my engine block to my frame (with a grounding strap), I haven't had the problem again. (Fingers crossed, knock on wood.)

 

[dr3283]

I'm knocking on wood too right now. Going on 4 days now and it has started everytime. I still have the problem with the SECURITY light flashing all the time (unless the system is armed....then it never goes off.....unless the car is actually running). The problem with this is that is that it drains the battery in 2 days.
I can shut it off by pulling the fuse behind the DIC but then the remote doors locks won't work.......
Oh, well.....beggars can't be chosers......rather have it start than lock the doors.......haha

 

[wwood]

Here is a link which may help, or at least supply another source of background information.

http://www.carquest.com/techbulletins/engine_controls/tt3q00.CQ.pdf

 

[dr3283]

Thanks wwood......I'll check it out....

 

[dr3283]

Thanks for the info wwood but I 've already followed that line based on some info provided by Vigman earlier. The good thing is that both of my keys show a code 10 (no variation of the ohms) and the two leads from the ignition switch to the connector show exactly the same value.
Vigman had me step through a series of tests the other night and we found a Starter Enable Relay acting up. I replaced it and have started 6 days in a row without fail (knocking, make that pounding on wood). HOWEVER,
I still have a problem with the "SECURITY" light. GM and the book says once you shut off the ignition and open the door, it will flash until you 1) lock the door which enables the Theft system or 2) a period of about 8-10 seconds when it goes out.
When you disable the alarm (with the key or the remote), it will flash again until the key is turned to the start position and then it goes off. My light flashes constantly if the theft sys is not armed (like all night) or if you arm the theft sys the light comes on solid and never shuts off. Both of these situations run the battery down in 2 days. (If I start the car the light does go out....like its supposed to).
If I pull the fuse on the UTD (behind the DIC panel), the light goes out so I've ordered a "guaranteed/used" Theft Module to check and see if thats it (new one is over $100....used was $20).
If this works we'll go from there. I can't just leave the fuse out, because then the remote lock/unlock doesn't work.
Just hope I'm on the right track now!

 

[wwood]

Tamper: This mode happens when the vehicle is cranked, and the resistance value as seen by the module is not the same as the value stored in the module. When this happens, the module shuts down for 4 minutes. Even if the correct resistance is then seen, the car will not start for the 4 minute "time-out". The security light will also illuminate for the 4 minutes. The Start Enable Relay will not energize and the Fuel Enable signal will not be sent. HINT: if the key pellet is dirty, it will put the module in the "Tamper" mode. If your car fails to crank/start and the security light comes on, try cleaning the pellet, wait 4 minutes, and try again.

Fail Enable: This mode is to help keep the motorist with the right key from being stranded. If a failure happens to the PassKey system AFTER a valid start, this mode is initiated. It allows the vehicle to be restarted, even with a failure present. The security light will remain illuminated to let you know a failure is present. However, this also means that the car can be started w/o a key, and is vulnerable to potential thieves.

If either of the two above sound like they are on the right track, further information can be found at: http://www.sethirdgen.org/vats.htm