stepping up on 63 solid lifter

[acquittal]

after 25 years I want to boost up my 63 fuelie solid lifter.I already switched to HEI and a 625 carter marine.It has Hooker exhaust manifolds and cyclone Hooker side pipes with Hurst 4 speed.I'd like to put an edelbrock 700 but am concerned about clearance for original hood.Any sugestions on putting close to 400 hp to rear wheels with out blowing this engine up or replacing it?please send sugestions to Biker451lou@hotmail.com

 

[92GTA]

Have you already done all of the following? I'm already presuming you have done extensive work on the heads and a cam to match since that's the most basic...

Porting and extrude hone of intake manifold and FI dog house
Porting of intake and exhaust ports to perfectly match intake runners and headers
Complete balanced rotating assembly (lightweight hyper pistons, lightweight rods, etc)
Knife-edge crank shaft
Lightweight flywheel/flexplate
Lightweight roller tipped rockers (these can be used with solid lifters)

It's really all about reducing reciprocating mass and valve-train mass after you FI/intake/heads/cam are done and matched. Don't forget a good on-dyno tune using a wide band. I imagine an old school FI will need quite a tune to run correctly after all that.

There are allot more tips out there but the ones I listed are fairly basic and common and maintain the stock appearance on the outside.

 

[Hib Halverson]

400 to the wheels is about 490 at the flywheel.

490 horsepower from a 327 is going to mean a very expensive engine...definitely won't happen with bolt-ons. You'll have to start from scratch with your 327 block and a whole s**t-load of premium aftermarket pieces.

Now, if you're willing to accept 400 at the flywheel and about 330 at the rear wheels, you'll have a project engine which won't cost too much...maybe $4000 in parts. Modern aluminum heads, a modern hydraulic roller cam and valvetrain, a modern intake manifold, a carb of 750-800 cfm and some good tuning work ought to have you at about 400 hp@6400-6500 rpm from that 327.

 

[mr.beachcomber]

I've found out by experieince that the greatest impediment to racing B Production (B/P) small journal SBC's like yours was the stock connecting rods (and the fact that we used to drill an oil relief hole in the top balancing pad). If you're going to boost the HP beyond 400 at the flywheel or rev the engine past 6200 RPM, I would replace those connecting rods with some aftermarket forged units (if you can find them at a reasonable price).

Stick with Hib's advice and go with aftermarket bolt-on parts. There's been plenty of improvement in cylinder head design as well as intake manifold design since your '63 first hit the streets. Aftermarket retro-fit roller cams would be on my list too. Also, I recommend that you also think about replacing the stock, forged pistons with a more modern design that promotes better swirl/mixing within the combustion chamber especially if you're going to use pump gasoline.

Good Luck!

 

[65TripleBlack]

400 to the wheels is about 490 at the flywheel.

490 horsepower from a 327 is going to mean a very expensive engine...definitely won't happen with bolt-ons. You'll have to start from scratch with your 327 block and a whole s**t-load of premium aftermarket pieces.

Now, if you're willing to accept 400 at the flywheel and about 330 at the rear wheels, you'll have a project engine which won't cost too much...maybe $4000 in parts. Modern aluminum heads, a modern hydraulic roller cam and valvetrain, a modern intake manifold, a carb of 750-800 cfm and some good tuning work ought to have you at about 400 hp@6400-6500 rpm from that 327.

Chassis dynoruns confirmed that my .030 over 327 with ported 461 heads developed 353.8 RWHP at 6300 RPM.

 

[Hib Halverson]

"Chassis dyno runs confirmed...."

Problem is you didn't offer all the info needed to judge the performance.

1) How was the chassis dyno data corrected or was it raw data?
2) If your figures are raw data, what were the atmospheric conditions?
3) What kind of dyno was it...inertia or a brake dyno?
4) What other modifications besides ported heads were done to the engine?

 

[65TripleBlack]

"Chassis dyno runs confirmed...."

Problem is you didn't offer all the info needed to judge the performance.

1) How was the chassis dyno data corrected or was it raw data?
2) If your figures are raw data, what were the atmospheric conditions?
3) What kind of dyno was it...inertia or a brake dyno?
4) What other modifications besides ported heads were done to the engine?

Hib,

I brought this up only because it might be implied from your post that original iron "camel hump/fuelie" heads would not support "400 at the flywheel and about 330 at the rear wheels" since you recommended "modern aluminum heads" in your hypothetical 327 for the OP.

1. & 2. The chassis data is SAE corrected atmospheric conditions.
3. It was tested on a Dynojet 224, which is an inertia dyno.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'd be very willing to fully discuss the configuration of my engine with you either in another thread, or offline.

If the OP is interested, and he asks, then I'll offer more info regarding my build.


Here are the dyno results:

 

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)
I don't want to hijack this thread...

Yeah...but you did, anyway.

But widening the focus of the discussion is a good thing.

My earlier post did not state or imply that the old 461 "FI" head would not support 400 at the flywheel. In fact, back in the day, when I was a bratty kid building SCCA B/P engines, we had 327s that did that--actually with open exhaust, on racing gas, with an aggressive spark curve and Rochester FI, we were probably about 410.

If there was any implication in my earlier post, it was that modern aluminum heads, when properly matched to the rest of the engine, will make that 400-hp at the flywheel with a flatter torque curve because you wouldn't need as much camshaft.

I looked at those dyno numbers and, indeed they're SAE-corrected, a standard which offers a more real-world comparison, but I have a question on the results: the pass where you saw 353 was in third gear. The dyno operator made one pass in fourth gear but the power was way down and the power plot, even with smoothing set to "5," was quite jagged, as if the engine was in detonation. What happened on that run?

I, also, noted you could only achieve 353 at the wheels with open exhaust. I suspect that "open exhaust" means you had headers on the engine. While you haven't stated your full package of modifications, would it be fair to say your 327 has more aftermarket enhancements than just headers and ported heads?

The fact remains that 355-rwhp at 6300 rpm (about 430 at the flywheel) is impressive from your 327 using 461 castings.

Another issue is that the OP listed 400-hp at the rear wheels as the goal. That's around 490 at the flywheel and my opinion remains that figure would be difficult and costly to attain with any Gen 1 SBC of 327 cuin., regardless of cylinder head choice.

 

[65TripleBlack]

Yeah...but you did, anyway.

But widening the focus of the discussion is a good thing.

My earlier post did not state or imply that the old 461 "FI" head would not support 400 at the flywheel. In fact, back in the day, when I was a bratty kid building SCCA B/P engines, we had 327s that did that--actually with open exhaust, on racing gas, with an aggressive spark curve and Rochester FI, we were probably about 410.

If there was any implication in my earlier post, it was that modern aluminum heads, when properly matched to the rest of the engine, will make that 400-hp at the flywheel with a flatter torque curve because you wouldn't need as much camshaft.

I looked at those dyno numbers and, indeed they're SAE-corrected, a standard which offers a more real-world comparison, but I have a question on the results: the pass where you saw 353 was in third gear. The dyno operator made one pass in fourth gear but the power was way down and the power plot, even with smoothing set to "5," was quite jagged, as if the engine was in detonation. What happened on that run?

I, also, noted you could only achieve 353 at the wheels with open exhaust. I suspect that "open exhaust" means you had headers on the engine. While you haven't stated your full package of modifications, would it be fair to say your 327 has more aftermarket enhancements than just headers and ported heads?

The fact remains that 355-rwhp at 6300 rpm (about 430 at the flywheel) is impressive from your 327 using 461 castings.

Another issue is that the OP listed 400-hp at the rear wheels as the goal. That's around 490 at the flywheel and my opinion remains that figure would be difficult and costly to attain with any Gen 1 SBC of 327 cuin., regardless of cylinder head choice.

I don't think that anything was amiss. I had been having excessive problems with fouled plugs, and the additional load placed on the engine by placing it into high gear might have brought on the plug misfire issue. I can only speculate. At the time of those runs, believe it or not, the engine was still using an original "202" coil with ballast resistor, and reproduction "Packard" wires. I have since upgraded the wires and the coil, widening the spark plug gap as well. Over this winter I'm installing a MSD box to put the issue to bed.

The engine has some other aftermarket upgrades. Again, let's hear from the OP. If he is interested then we'll continue this discussion.

 

[acquittal]

63 solid lifter

Chassis dynoruns confirmed that my .030 over 327 with ported 461 heads developed 353.8 RWHP at 6300 RPM.

Thank you for your time and .knowledge. i think you guys have onvinced me to yank out the original angine and shrink wrap it.I'll start from scratch and hopefully have all the right stuff when I' done.It's comforting to know I have you all for advice.Thanks again and have a happy holiday-Lou

 

[65TripleBlack]

Thank you for your time and .knowledge. i think you guys have onvinced me to yank out the original angine and shrink wrap it.I'll start from scratch and hopefully have all the right stuff when I' done.It's comforting to know I have you all for advice.Thanks again and have a happy holiday-Lou

Lou,

My 327 would almost certainly show about 360-365 RWHP if it were tested now, in it's present form with the 45kv coil, Pertronix trigger, and MSD ignition unit. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the original heads will NOT support any more horsepower than that. I ported those heads to the absolute safe limit and achieved 180cc intake ports which is VERY large considering that they were originally 160cc's. I used as many tricks as I could in order to minimize friction and windage and coolant/intake manifold temp while maximizing cylinder pressure and ring sealing. The engine looks bone stock with the exception of the 750cfm double pumper (without choke horn), Hooker sidemount headers, and 1966-67 style open element air filter. I use a fully ported Z28/LT1 intake manifold, which looks just like the stock "boat anchor" 461 unless closely scrutinized.

The original connecting rods are a weakness that MUST be addressed if you intend to build anything that will make more than about 400 flywheel horsepower and winds higher than about 6500 RPM. There's nothing wrong with original style pistons with small domes. A lightweight flywheel would also be helpful.

Unfortunately, if your goal is 400 RWHP, then that is just beyond the limit of your cast iron heads flow capability. There are aftermarket iron heads available that can be disguised to look just like your original heads, but they won't make much more power than the originals. You will need a set of heads with at least 185cc intake ports in order to get to the 400 RWHP level and beyond. Don't be afraid of using an aggressive solid roller cam.

Using a modern, high quality block will make things easier for you, and, of course, you can then go for big displacement, like 427, and shoot for 500 RWHP rather than 400. One of the first questions you have to ask yourself, now, is: do I want a torquer or a screamer? You also need to decide on how original looking you want your engine to be.

If your engine is the original one, then you're smart to start with a different block. If it's not, then you can build a very original looking package using a vintage block, the original short stroke crankshaft, and "disguised" and painted aluminum heads, which will satisfy your original goal of 400 RWHP.