Switch to Stainless Braided from Rubber Brake hose?

[Thumper]

I've got rotors that are cross drilled and slotted, o-ring calipers and steel braided brake lines. Unless I was racing, I doubt that I would actually benefit from all of this overkill....but, I like overkill. Plus, it all looks cool. It depends upon your taste and budget. Some people are plenty satified with what GM put on the cars originally, and I think that's great. I can also appreciate those who want to spend the bucks for the sparkly, flashy stuff. To each their own. There wouldn't be any truly fast mid 70's vettes out there if everyone stuck to the engine combinations that GM put in the cars originally.

I put steel braided brake lines on my Jeep CJ7, more because they were stronger and much less likely to break when four wheeling, than for the looks. Plus, on my Jeep, I could definitely tell that they gave me a harder pedal than the stock rubber lines. My Jeep has much more unsprung weight to deal with and it made a difference.

 

[Roy]

This same thread has existed for years on a BMW motorcycle forum I frequent. Stainless steel vs. conventional rubber brake hoses. Motorcycle owners are as fanatical as Corvette owners when it comes to spending money on "upgrades" to their vehicle. Many feel that more expensive = higher performance. Most are disappointed or believe that performance is improved simply because they don't want to think that all their time and money were wasted. High priced under-performing PIAA light bulbs come to mind.

I have never seen or heard of anyone experiencing a blown brake line hose. It may happen, but logic would tell you that the caliper seals will fail long before a brake line does. Conventional brake lines are not just rubber. Most of them have fabric and/or woven metal molded into the hose casing. Flexible yet strong.

Almost every motorcycle rider that switched from conventional to stainless steel braided hose lines reported a firmer brake feel. I decided to cut open as many stainless steel and conventional brake lines that came my way. Although not a scientific study, the stainless steel braided hoses were all manufactured with a smaller internal diameter hose opening. The smaller internal dimensions of the stainless steel lines may be one reason that the brake lever felt more firm. I don't know.

Dealing with the outside casing of stainless steel brake lines does create a problem. First, they are not as flexible as conventional brake lines and resist turning and bending. Second, any prolonged contact between the braided stainless steel cover and the fiberglass fender of a motorcycle led to obvious results - the fender always lost and had chunks crewed out of it by the stainless steel hose. I even experienced and saw other bikes with the aluminum engine cases crewed away by continued contact with the stainless steel lines. Not pretty.

Over the years I have used stainless steel brake lines but I have learned that they are not for me. Too much hassle, no improvement in braking (actually worse) and the cost is not justified. I will say one thing in their favor, stainless steel lines look cool.

My 2 cents.

Roy in Sunny Portland Oregon

 

[GTR1999]

I agree thumper, but I always put the money into a cam,intake,carb,heads,etc before replacing something that works very good to begin with.

The 75 we finished has a good 390-400 hp coming out of the original L-82 block with plenty of aluminum and chrome to boot.The car looks stock until you fire it up,then you know its not a 75 L-82.

Like you said "to each their own"

 

[Thumper]

coupeman, I hear ya dude. I spent my money there too. I also blew a considerable amount on chrome and polished goodies. No reason why it can't look as good as it goes. I am just fortunate at this time to be able to afford the sparkly stuff too. That could all change in an instant, so I'm going for it while I can.

The nice thing about this forum, and a few others, is that if you're not sure about something...be it due to cost, or lack of knowledge, etc. There are many nice, experienced (BTDT) folks who are here to help you make an informed decision. Some evidently are a bit stubborn in their views, but are still worth hearing out.

 

[MaineShark]

I agree thumper, but I always put the money into a cam,intake,carb,heads,etc before replacing something that works very good to begin with.

Stainless lines cost about $15 extra...

Joe

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Some evidently are a bit stubborn in their views, but are still worth hearing out.

It's probably more a case of "been-there-done-that, wasted the money myself, no need for you to repeat my mistake" more than being stubborn.
wanna see my T shirt?

 

[vette-dude]

I think that SS lines are great when you have a need. Not for the street unless you want "THE LOOK" but where it will be worth the costs. My experience was on a Dragstrip where my pro-street chevy was going about 112 mph and the driveshaft snapped in the middle. The broken piece hit the track (Yes I did have a driveshaft safety loop) and bounced back up taking out the fuel lines, the rear end housing, puncturing the fuel cell. The front broken piece whipped around and broke the trans in half. Luckily I had installed a Stainless steel brake line to the rear junction block ( mainly for looks I thought) and although it was damaged it never came apart and I was able to brake safely. Is it worth it?? Well I never would have been able to stop the car in time without it and the ride into the sand trap would have really damaged the car so I say yes. If you want them then put them on. Who cares whether it is hype or not. If it makes you more comfortable knowing they are there then do it.

Randy

 

[PigPen]

I now use the rubber oem hoses. I had two previous cars that I put SS hoses on and they both broke a line at the fitting while driving. I have never had a rubber hose fail. You can inspect rubber hoses, but you can't inspect and predict when the SS hoses will fail. Mine seemed to fail due to fatgue, with no warning. If you do go with SS, change them regularly.

 

[srthom13]

I did the entire change over to stainless two years ago along with silicone fluid. The additional funds needed to upgrade to ss was not that bad and worth the peace of mind, especially if you don't drive the vehicle that often. Pedal pressure is better, maintenance is less but more importantly " it just makes me feel better ". It looks better also. I suppose rubber is good, my original rubber hoses lasted many years but I think the new technology is better. MHO Steve

 

[tscott9330]

I'm not taking either side in this little debate, but I would like to point out the fact that the reason that alot of companies do not get D.O.T. Aproval is the cost. The cost to test products to DOT specs would bankrupt most small to medium companies. So it doesnt mean its not a quality product if it's not DOT aproved. Just do yourself a favor and do a little homework first.


Tom

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

The additional funds needed to upgrade to ss was not that bad and worth the peace of mind, Steve

I had two previous cars that I put SS hoses on and they both broke a line at the fitting while driving.

I think you guys need to talk to each other...........

 

[silver77vette]

One of the first things I did when I got my vette. Great pedal feel ! Just a line from a 'racer boy'

 

[CQRT]

You seem pretty adamant in your belief Mikey-- are you an engineering-type that would render your opinion better informed, or are you just out to see what kind of discord you can stir up on a seemingly innocuous subject? You seem to want to criticize the fellow simply for not blindly agreeing with your position.
If there's good science fine, but your way or the highway- it's not !

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

A response- long

You seem pretty adamant in your belief Mikey-- are you an engineering-type that would render your opinion better informed, or are you just out to see what kind of discord you can stir up on a seemingly innocuous subject? You seem to want to criticize the fellow simply for not blindly agreeing with your position.
If there's good science fine, but your way or the highway- it's not !

Yes, I am adamant in my opinion, and yes, I am an "engineering type". Thanks for asking. I have 25+ years seniority with world's largest manufacturer of aviation gas turbine engines, every moment of that fully engaged in some, or all of: assembly, test, design engineering, reliability engineering, field engineering, shop repair, field repair and/or customer service. Throw in 4 years of instruction somewhere in the middle of that. 15 of those years was heavily oriented towards monitoring the reliability trends of 40,000 individual gas turbine engines operating in 150+ countries around the world and reporting the stats (by requirement of the law) to the federal regulatory authorities. Not long into that job, you learn the difference between 'dependable' 'reliable' and 'durable'. Until you know the difference, stand clear.

Prior to that, I had ten years experience as a tech inspector for a nationally accredited motorcyle road racing organisation. Concurrent with that I held a professional motorcycle mechanics license with the AMA and regularly 'wrenched' with a team at Laconia NH and Daytona FL. Yes, that makes it the early 70's for those who are counting.

My first encounter with SS/teflon brake lines was in bike racing. Rules were 'not allowed'. Any bike that showed up at tech check was sent back to remove them. "Sudden failures" was the reason.

Next experience was a friend in Toronto who tried an experimental monocoque frame and used teflon lines throughout. A line fracture put him in the weeds, fortunately at low speed. I helped him make new lines out of good old TBW with OEM rubber lines from Honda IIRC

Most relevant experience was shortly after entering the aviation field. My first job as an apprentice was to test and calibrate fuel control units mounted on a huge test rig driven by a 75HP electric motor. All hydraulic and pneumatic connections to and from the units were with ss/teflon lines for easy of mounting and quick change over from one config to the other. After the third 'shower' I took in 1500 psi fluid following a hose burst, the local health and safety rep blew the whistle. The hose manufacturer was called in and informed all concerned that hoses of this nature, although aircraft quality, WERE NOT SUITABLE FOR INSTALLATIONS WHERE A HIGH DEGREE OF FLEXING AND VIBRATION WERE PRESENT ON A CONSTANT BASIS. He further explained that all hoses of this construction were subject to sudden failure (no sh*t says me), and NO non-distructive tests were considered adequate to recertify.

The solution was to replace all $3000. (1978 dollars) worth of hoses every three months.

Note that NO aircraft engine manufactured by this particular company has ever had (or will have ) ss/teflon flex lines.

Do I consider the subject 'innocuous' ? No. Not where sudden failure of the primary safety system of a high powered performance vehicle is concerned. "Innocuous" could be debating whether brand X brake pads vs. brand Y pads last longer. Brake pads wear out in a progressive manner that can be tracked, measured, plotted, analysed and most importantly removed from service before they cease to function.

SS/teflon brake lines (by all accounts) cannot, and therefore present an unacceptable failure mechanism with equally unacceptable consequences of the failure.

I suggested in my first post that the person inquiring do a bit of external research on the subject to get opinions from others with direct experience with these particular components. Others have since chimed in here with opinions that ranged from 'made no difference in brake feel' to 'I personally had a failure' with a smattering of 'no problems to date'.

I guess I fail to see why the debate goes on trying to justify a product that, by all accounts, appears to offer no improvements in performance (other than anecdotal quotes) yet introduces a new and serious failure mode where none existed before when using the OEM product.

Stirring up discord? Not my intent. Healthy debate that's woth the effort? In my book yes.

 

[CQRT]

Thanks Mikey-- enjoyed that. It might be a bit over the top, but hey, I asked! And I respect the answer.

 

[Thumper]

Great post Mikey. I wonder if technology has progressed since the 70's and 80's in terms of reliability? I enjoy these debates. Excellent way to learn.

 

[MaineShark]

I wonder if technology has progressed since the 70's and 80's in terms of reliability?

It has, indeed. The only real concern with braided stainless hoses is that they can potentially "saw" through other metal if there is rubbing, but this is not an issue with the brake hoses since they don't rub anything.

And concerns about disconnection of the fittings are unfounded. Modern Aeroquip hose ends are significantly better than the "barb and crimp" fittings used with OEM rubber hoses. If people are having problems, it's probably due to improper assembly, which just points to the need to choose a reputable supplier.

Joe

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I wonder if technology has progressed since the 70's and 80's in terms of reliability

I asked this question of the guys who now look after the maintenance of the fuel control rig I described above. The answer was a flat 'NO'. SS/teflon lines today are no more suitable for extended periods of extreme flexing and twisting than they ever were, irrespective of who makes them and what type of fittings are used.

 

[JohnZ]

Great post, Mikey - and excellent engineering analysis (another engineer speaking here). After six years as the Viper Plant Manager (and co-leader of Team Viper, which had three straight years of winning the FIA GTS-class World Championship, three consecutive Class wins at LeMans, and overall win at the Rolex 24 at Daytona), why didn't we use braided SS hoses on the Brembo brakes on the production Viper, which isn't particularly cost-sensitive? Simple - they're not reliable in long-term normal street-car usage. We use them on the factory race cars, but they're changed during prep for every race meet; the professional drivers like the more linear pedal feel when they're modulating the pedal on the ragged edge of lockup from 180+ mph every ten seconds. For a street-driven car, long-term primary safety system reliability is a lot more important than appearance.

 

[mauivette]

Opinions Vary: Here is a quote from Corvette Magazine.

"Simply put, stainless steel brake lines are superior to the original equipment rubber brake hoses. Over time, rubber hoses dry out and crack. This leads to leaks and an eventual rupture."
You can read the whole article here.

http://www.corvettemagazine.com/1999/sep99/SSBRAKES/ssbrakesp1.asp