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Thermostat poll, 160 vs 180

Which thermostat do you use?

  • 180 degree

    Votes: 195 68.4%
  • 160 degree

    Votes: 90 31.6%

  • Total voters
    285
This was posted by Rob on another thread. Good reading

According to our Specification pages linked at the top, the original LT-1 engine was in production from 1970 to 1972. The L98 engine was in production from 1985 to 1991. The Gen II LT1 was in production from 1992 to 1996. The LT4 which was a modified LT1 only saw production in Corvettes in 1996. The ZR-1's LT5 engine was in production from 1990 to 1995.

As for reverse flow cooling, here's all you ever wanted to know:

LT1 Reverse Flow Cooling System
By Scott Mueller.


One of the greatest features of the '92 and up Chevrolet LT1 engine is the reverse flow cooling system. In fact it is reverse flow cooling that is truly the key to the incredible performance of the modern LT1. Reverse flow cooling is vastly superior to the conventional cooling systems used on virtually all other engines. This is because it cools the cylinder heads first, preventing detonation and allowing for a much higher compression ratio and more spark advance on a given grade of gasoline. A fringe benefit is that cylinder bore temperatures are higher and more uniform, which reduces piston ring friction. Because of this new cooling system, the LT1 can easily meet ever increasing emissions standards with significant gains in power, durability, and reliability.

Conventional Coolant Flow:

In a conventional engine design, coolant enters the front of the block and circulates through the block's water jacket. The coolant is first heated by the cylinder barrels, and then hot coolant is subsequently routed through the cylinder heads and intake manifold before returning through the thermostat to the radiator.

Because the coolant from the radiator is first directed to the cylinder bores, they run at below optimum temperatures which increases piston ring friction. The heads subsequently get coolant that has already been heated by the cylinder block, which causes the heads to run well above optimum temperatures. The hotter cylinder heads promote detonation (spark knock) and head gasket failures. To combat the increased tendency to detonate, compression ratios has to be lowered and spark advance reduced, which significantly reduces engine power output and efficiency.

Besides promoting detonation, causing gasket failures, forcing reduced compression, spark advance, and significantly reduced power output, a conventional cooling system causes several other problems. Since the thermostat is on the exit side of the system, it does not have direct control over the cold coolant entering from the radiator. This is especially true when the thermostat first opens after reaching operating temperature. As the thermostat first opens allowing hot coolant to exit the engine, a rush of very cold coolant enters the block all at once, shocking the engine and causing sudden dimensional changes in the metal components. The extreme thermal shock experienced by the engine causes head gaskets and other soft parts to fail much more quickly.

Conventional cooling system design also allows isolated engine hot spots to occur, which lead to the generation of steam pockets and coolant foaming. Coolant which is full of air and foam reduces cooling system performance and can even lead to engine overheating.

LT1 Coolant Flow:

The LT1 is completely different since it uses reverse flow cooling. The incoming coolant first encounters the thermostat, which now acts both on the inlet and outlet sides of the system. Depending on the engine coolant temperature, cold coolant from the radiator is carefully metered into the engine. This allows a more controlled amount of cold coolant to enter, which immediately mixes with the bypass coolant already flowing. This virtually eliminates the thermal shock present in the old system.

After entering through one side of the 2-way thermostat (at the appropriate temperature), the cold coolant is routed directly to the cylinder heads first, where the combustion chambers, spark plugs and exhaust ports are cooled. Then the heated coolant returns to the engine block and circulates around the cylinder barrels. The hot coolant from the block re-enters the water pump, and hits the other side of the 2-way thermostat, where it is either re-circulated back through the engine or directed to the radiator, depending on temperature.

The main concept behind reverse flow cooling is to cool the heads first, which greatly reduces the tendency for detonation, and is the primary reason that the LT1 can run 10.5 to 1 compression and fairly significant ignition advance on modern lead-free gasoline. Reverse flow cooling is THE KEY to the Generation II LT1s increased power, durability, and reliability over the first generation smallblock engine.

Thermostats:

All LT1 engines utilize a special 2-way acting full bypass thermostat. This means that the thermostat regulates coolant flow both in to as well as out of the engine, while the bypass portion of the thermostat circuit supplies the water pump with a full flow of liquid coolant at all times. This is unlike a conventional engine thermostat, which only regulates coolant flow at the engine outlet, and which does not allow full flow through the water pump when the engine is cold and the thermostat is in bypass mode.

Both sides of the 2-way thermostat used in the LT1 are linked together, and a single wax pellet actuator operates the spring loaded mechanism at a pre-set temperature. When the designated temperature is reached, the wax pellet expands, opening the dual acting valve. All current LT1s come from the factory with a relatively low 180 degree temperature thermostat. Most conventional engines today use 195 degree thermostats in order to meet emissions specifications at the expense of power, durability, and reliability.

It is important to note that the 2-way thermostat is unique to the Generation II LT1 and is not interchangeable with older Chevrolet smallblock engines. This is particularly important if you decide to change to a colder 160 degree thermostat, make sure it is the proper dual acting type required by the modern LT1.

Additional LT1 Cooling System Improvements:

In addition to reverse coolant flow, there are several other improvements in the LT1 cooling system over conventional engines.
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Here's the thread:
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/lt4-forum/10259-lt1-lt4-ls1-ls6-whats-difference.html

By the way, I have no idea what thermostat is in my car.
 
I was recently looking at ways to make the L98 a reverse flow system....and it seems that it can be done.
Fittings on the block face, a manifold of sorts to collect the flow send it to the intake thru the big hose and the heater hose, and a different set of fittings tosuck water out from the lower hose and feed the radiator. An electric pump would do the work with a remote mount t-stat in charge of when flow began.

It would be an interesting project for someone that had the shop and the necessary tools/machines/welders to mfg the required parts. I agree that reverse flow is the key to enhanced SB chev performance. If it were'nt for the cooler heads there would be less timing and comp, cam and just about everything else that bumps up power here and there in the 350 platform. Some of us have managed to get the same results with a great deal of time/money and patience with cooling system upgrades to make the common-flow cooling system as stable and efficient as the LT system, but even then its not the same. One of my secrets....lots more advance, I do have 10.5:1 comp and when I run good fuel and have a op temp around 185-190 the engine generates a great deal more HP and the effect of the current power band at 3000 is even more pronounced and surprizing.

Like most folks I started with the 160 stat going strictly by what I felt at warm up. A quicker, crisper smoother engine at those temps. As temps got toward 200 that tight crispness faded away...quickly.

After some tuning and other work to fully utilize what was available at whatever the optimum temp was, it was decided that a 180 was the best choice for several reasons.

The biggest was engine longivity and lifespam. 160 is too cold and the oil cannot clean itself and will collect contaminates such as raw fuel and hydrocarbons that ruin its ability to lubricate. Water cannot boil off and be "cooked" out of the oil.
The metals in the engine are not stable at 160 and the risk of gasket failure goes up the lower the temp goes down.

Knowing that whatever stat was used would set a running temp of around 5-15 degrees higher, the 180 was used to make operating temps land in the 190 area where the tune likes it, the oil likes it, the emissions will meet the test requirements and the performance is rock solid. Had a 160 been used, no way these parameters would have been met.

The 195 would probably be ok as well but I worried that there might be spikes with that stat opening & closing under mild conditions causing more spikes in temp that I was willing to tolerate. I prefer a more stable temp so the 180 delivers that as long as it has airflow.

A word of warning about airflow and temps...
I discovered last month during the worst of the summer that my car was trying to creep up past 220-230 in traffic in 105 degree ambient traffic temps....I assumed that it was because of the excessive road heat and a/c running.
What I discovered was that my fan motor was shot and was running at about 1/2 speed or sometimes NOT at all.
Once that was replaced the temps now only climb 10 degrees sitting at idle in extremes and no change in weather like we've had the last couple weeks. The car was basically running without a cooling fan for the worst part of the summer and still never overheated, just let the temp climb to where the stock temps "normal" range was.....New fan motor installed, temps are once again stable and back where they belong.
 
Lifespam..... the end result of digging up a 3 year old thread and asking a question like this.
 
Lifespam..... the end result of digging up a 3 year old thread and asking a question like this.

I didn't dig it up.. If that is your intimation. That honour belongs to another.In fact, I dont even know how it was done..Roger.
 
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After spending some time in the weeds with TunerPro as I'm working on a revised flash for my '82... I think the "improvement" people talk about with a 160 'stat is largely due three things found in open loop operation:
  • cold temperature enrichment (driven by the value in the CTS)
  • emissions systems not in play (due to not reaching operating temperature)
  • a denser, cooler air charge (more air)

CTS enrichment can be tuned and increased if someone so desired. It's really not hard to play with that and either increase the temperature for enrichment, prolong it, or add some incremental fuel across the VE tables. Also- someone could theoretically adjust the sclars and tables for emissions components too.

I'd say just get an EBL P4 system and a copy of TunerPro if you want to really experiment with any of these. Otherwise, you're just fooling the ECM into closed loop operation.
 
Ya think?

Here is my take on all of this as I see it; WHAT?

-Bill
 
IMO, there is more than one correct answer so my favorite answer "it depends" applies.

If you're running a naturally aspirated engine, a 180. If you're running forced induction or nitrous, a 160. As stated, there is a reason GM uses a 190 and also a reason A&A and ECS supply a 160 with their kits.
 
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After spending some time in the weeds with TunerPro as I'm working on a revised flash for my '82... I think the "improvement" people talk about with a 160 'stat is largely due three things found in open loop operation:
  • cold temperature enrichment (driven by the value in the CTS)
  • emissions systems not in play (due to not reaching operating temperature)
  • a denser, cooler air charge (more air)

CTS enrichment can be tuned and increased if someone so desired. It's really not hard to play with that and either increase the temperature for enrichment, prolong it, or add some incremental fuel across the VE tables. Also- someone could theoretically adjust the sclars and tables for emissions components too.

I'd say just get an EBL P4 system and a copy of TunerPro if you want to really experiment with any of these. Otherwise, you're just fooling the ECM into closed loop operation.

Your car only has to reach 104F to go into closed loop, the other 2 factors are a timer in the programming and o2 sensor temperature.
 
I'm no expert on this subject but for late model Vettes with electronically controlled fuel injection - changing thermostats to something other than OEM spec can have some ugly results. Lowering the thermostat temp will cause the computer to richen the fuel mixture. This of course will result in reduced fuel milage and over the long haul could do some cylinder damage. The C4's and especially the C5's were designed to run at mucher higher temperatures than most folks are accustomed too. Stick with the factory recommended thermostat and stop all this hand wringing.

Remo:cool

I asked my mechanic, whom I trust completely, he's very intelligent, skilled, and knows Vettes and Computer controlled Fuel Injection, etc... he told me the same thing you wrote, somewhat verbatim... it's just nice to see a confirmation.

I thought the same thing as well. I generally trust the engineers who design such systems and believe, first, they know much more than I about these things, and that they probably know at least something even most mechanics might know about why such a cooling system should run at such a high temp.

My first thought was about the sludge. I knew that cooler temps would just have to make for more sticky sludge. I know computers and thought how the computer takes all the data received and adjusts the fuel mix and injector operation to get the best mix of performance. emissions compliance, and fuel economy.

But seeing how there were so many Vette owners were dropping their T-Stat Temps to 160, 180, I had the thought that maybe I was missing something on the Vette Owner side that maybe the Engineers didn't know or design for.

I trust your explanation, as it coincides with my suspicions, and more so, the explanation of my very knowledgeable mechanic... oh! and the design and implementation of the Engineers who built the damn system to begin with!

Respectfully

John V. Brennan
USCG Veteran
1985 Corvette, Bright Red
:pat

PS. Oh! and I do occasionally drive my Vette in the Winter, and I want the heater to work as max as possible.
 
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I know this is old but, why is there no choice for 195?
John V. Brennan - US COAST GUARD Veteran :pat
1985 Corvette, Bright Red
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Remo

I'm no expert on this subject but for late model Vettes with electronically controlled fuel injection - changing thermostats to something other than OEM spec can have some ugly results. Lowering the thermostat temp will cause the computer to richen the fuel mixture. This of course will result in reduced fuel milage and over the long haul could do some cylinder damage. The C4's and especially the C5's were designed to run at mucher higher temperatures than most folks are accustomed too. Stick with the factory recommended thermostat and stop all this hand wringing.

I tried a 160 in my old 85,to keep it short the ECM checks the oxygen sensor at cruzen speed. It threw a EGR CODE.Reinstalled the factory stat & never had the code again.So IM with Remo on this.
 

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