Question: Torque steer?

[WhalePirot]

My C-4 has long had torque steer, even after buying and mounting the special plates on the C-beam to fix the issue. The car wants to nose right under hard throttle and left when off of it.

Will a proper alignment remedy it? Does that mean that this adjustable, heim-jointed rear suspension will be different left to right?

 

[boomdriver]

My C-4 has long had torque steer, even after buying and mounting the special plates on the C-beam to fix the issue. The car wants to nose right under hard throttle and left when off of it.

Will a proper alignment remedy it? Does that mean that this adjustable, heim-jointed rear suspension will be different left to right?

The rear toe assy cannot have any slack and if it does, some steer/handling problem like you describe is the result. A new rear toe assy would fix it, but everybody buys the fancy heim joint kit to do the same thing.

Mine was doing that caused by a loose tie rod end on the left rear. Turns out that it was still tight enough, BUT it was not drawn tight in the socket where the castle nut holds the taper shaft down into the bore....

step on the gas the L. rear wheel turned right....let off the gas it relaxed and turned left....This was bad enough to actually move over into another lane if you stompped the gas too hard ! Later it could be seen by holding the brake, and applying a little gas....and then you could see the rear wheel turn left or right...about 1" to either direction ! That was "steering" the rear of the car whenever gas was applied or released.

Check all the wheels for loose joints, then spend the cash on the 4 wheel thrust angle alignment and it'll go like it was on tracks again...
I truely believe that when the suspension is tight, with good bushings and wheels all set to spec, that it will drive straight with power applied. I can understand the torque steer effect with some cars that have higher HP/torque motors installed and possibly looser rear suspensions from age. I hear that some peoples rear ends do get looser as they get older..
With all the torque, its easy to see a little "slack" here or there allowing a half-shaft to get tweaked and aim itself somewhere besides the centerline like it should.

In addition, the heim joints are the fancy upgrade for rear toe and/or lower strut. Just buy a good kit. I've seen some that were not as HD as the factory rods and end links. Cheesy looking parts....The big problem with the factory toe assembly is the center section with its plastic inserts/sockets for the inner ball joints. Those can't be serviced, and do take lots of abuse and wear, and can;t stay tight forever. As they wear, indicated by how easy it is to move the toe rod, that translates into lateral motion.
The ability of that toe rod to move in or out which is toe in/out to the wheel that it services. This by itself can be the source of torque steer.
I like to pull the toe rods off the rear annually to test. When d/c at the end, you should be able to lift the rod and actually place some weight on it and it should stay without falling. It should be pretty stiff and smooth at the inner joint. If it will not stay up or if it has no stiffness, replace immediately. I test mine because I saw the result of a rear toe assy failure. The car was on the freeway and the driver side broke, left rear wheel took a hard left turn and put the back end into the K-rail....hard. The driver said that it was so fast that he had no time to react or brake, like someone just took the wheel and jerked it out of his hands. Enough to scare me "straight" !

 

[John Robinson]

Also look at the outer U joint on the half shafts (actually look at both U joints) I had the same problem and in my case it was the u joints on the left side. I think they get loaded more than the right side and go bad over time because of the camber of the roads.:ugh

 

[WhalePirot]

Thanks for the input. I'll add that I have just replaced both wheel bearings plus all the Heim and U-joints 'back there'. The car has 110k miles; is a 4+3 as shown in my signature.

One U, the right outer was really shot and had almost ruined the half-shaft.

I cannot move anything by hand, but looking for any when starting off is a good idea.

 

[boomdriver]

Thanks for the input. I'll add that I have just replaced both wheel bearings plus all the Heim and U-joints 'back there'. The car has 110k miles; is a 4+3 as shown in my signature.

One U, the right outer was really shot and had almost ruined the half-shaft.

I cannot move anything by hand, but looking for any when starting off is a good idea.

Get someone to help....to do the driving part with the clutch action & brake applied or to observe the rear wheels one at a time.

Apply power to the drivetrain and observe the rear wheels. IF they try to twist, move in ANY way other than roll,. then you have bad toe-rods, toe rod ends, or a loose wheel bearing. A loose toe assembly will allow the wheel to move enough to be seen as torque is applied OR released.

If you've ever felt like the back end moved over while driving and applied power, thats loose toe rods/ends. Its just a sensation of looseness thats hard to identify...you just feel the back end as you step on the gas or let off. Like it "wiggles" if that makes any sense. Mine was most noticable at freeway speeds if I stepped on the gas to pass someone and then as I let off...it wiggled. In the rain it was just plain scary.....

Again, the only way to test the inner toe-rod is to disconnect at the end, or spindle, and grab the rod and see how tight it is at the (inner) center socket. The inner socket is not rebuildable. It IS replacable for a couple hundred $$ OR a heim joint kit for a little more that ends the worry over plastic inserts (ball & socket) that can't be seen.

 

[Hib Halverson]

First of all, you don't have "torque steer". It would be impossible to have it with a five link rear suspension.

What you have is "ride" or "toe steer". This occurs when the rear toe angle changes as the suspension moves.

Somewhere in the rear, you've got either a bad bushing, spherical joint, tie rod, bearing, u-joint, or rear powertrain mount.

 

[boomdriver]

First of all, you don't have "torque steer". It would be impossible to have it with a five link rear suspension.

What you have is "ride" or "toe steer". This occurs when the rear toe angle changes as the suspension moves.

Somewhere in the rear, you've got either a bad bushing, spherical joint, tie rod, bearing, u-joint, or rear powertrain mount.

The everyday driver/owner thats not a technical writer/expert often does not know the technical term for many of these things, as I certainly do not...:confused

But, The average guy can relate and describe a malfunction best by what its doing. When I/we use the term "torque steer" it is because that is what we can feel when the phenomenon occur, as torque (engine power) is applied or released. So, a car can torque steer when there is something wrong with the 5pt suspension:ugh And engine torque is what initiates the malfunction/sensation.
A similie of sort. An analogy not technically accurate, but enough information for an expert like Hib, to understand the problem.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Whether we discuss this problem using the correct terms or talk about it as if we were a bunch good old boys working on a car with a pair of vise grips and a hammer, the fact remains, that the car in question has some kind of problem in the rear suspension which is causing wheel alignment to change as the suspension moves.

The term "Torque steer" is typically applied to a problem some front wheel drive vehicles have when scrub radius is large and the front wheels are both steering and applying torque. In that perspective, torque steer can be a wear or alignment issue as well as a design issue.

With respect to the rear suspension of a C4 Vette, "torque steer" is actually "toe steer' or "ride steer" caused by deflection of suspension or axle parts which might be worn. This deflection comes from body movement caused by acceleration, suspension movement caused by the road surface or by the wheels and suspension reacting to drive torque.

But however we describe it, my guess is the car in question has some kind of wear problem in the rear suspension or with the axle shafts.

 

[93Rubie]

Whether we discuss this problem using the correct terms or talk about it as if we were a bunch good old boys working on a car with a pair of vise grips and a hammer,boogie) the fact remains, that the car in question has some kind of problem in the rear suspension which is causing wheel alignment to change as the suspension moves.

The term "Torque steer" is typically applied to a problem some front wheel drive vehicles have when scrub radius is large and the front wheels are both steering and applying torque. In that perspective, torque steer can be a wear or alignment issue as well as a design issue.

With respect to the rear suspension of a C4 Vette, "torque steer" is actually "toe steer' or "ride steer" caused by deflection of suspension or axle parts which might be worn. This deflection comes from body movement caused by acceleration, suspension movement caused by the road surface or by the wheels and suspension reacting to drive torque.

But however we describe it, my guess is the car in question has some kind of wear problem in the rear suspension or with the axle shafts.

Not to hi-jack a thread but you guys want to experience torque steer. Drive one of the W-Body cars with the LS4 5.3L V8's under the hood. WOW, 325ft-lbs to the front wheels=bad idea. Good for tire smoke, however.

 

[WhalePirot]

Whether we discuss this problem using the correct terms or talk about it as if we were a bunch good old boys working on a car with a pair of vise grips and a hammer, the fact remains......

I appreciate the correction and the input, even if it seems a bit harshly delivered... then, I am a sensitive MF.

you guys want to experience torque steer. ...

I love it at times, others, not so, with waaay more than that (as a Vette should have)!

 

[Hib Halverson]

Not to hi-jack a thread but you guys want to experience torque steer. Drive one of the W-Body cars with the LS4 5.3L V8's under the hood. WOW, 325ft-lbs to the front wheels=bad idea. Good for tire smoke, however.

Once a long time ago, Buick had a funky coupe called the Reatta. This was back in the turbo-Grand National period and the first thing GM einginers did was put a turbo-3.8 out of a GN into a Reatta.

Now THAT was torque steer.

 

[Hib Halverson]

I appreciate the correction and the input, even if it seems a bit harshly delivered... then, I am a sensitive MF.

Oh...come on now "WhalePirot" we all have our Bubba-with-vise-grip moments. I mean, hey... that's why, in the bottom drawer of my tool box, I have a 3-ft pry bar, an impact gun, an air hammer and a 5-lb short-handled sledge.

 

[John Robinson]

OK guys the real issue hear is the posters problem not oneupmanship. I think we all can agree that the posters problem is number one and the focus of this site is to be a resource that we all can turn too for help. It is nice to know the correct terminology for some things but in other cases it is better to return to our roots. I too have used the wrong name or over simplified my response to a poster but I have only done it to facilitate their being able to grasp the point I was trying to make. We should never forget what are purpose hear is and it is to be a sounding board of enthusiast who are willing to help others. Therefor in the future I would suggest we keep in mind (particularly for newcomers) there needs and not turn their introduction to this forum into a bad experience.

Now I will step off my soap box.

 

[Toms007]

John, thank you for bringing this thread back on track.

 

[WhalePirot]

Oh...come on now "WhalePirot" we all have our Bubba-with-vise-grip moments. I mean, hey... that's why, in the bottom drawer of my tool box, I have a 3-ft pry bar, an impact gun, an air hammer and a 5-lb short-handled sledge.

You might be impressed, IF we did that sort of thing, with the two crow bars, one steel, one titanium, BOTH bent like pretzels from my rear bearing job.

OK guys the real issue hear is the posters problem not oneupmanship.

Actually, I chose not to see it as one-upmanship, but agree with you and appreciate that the lack thereof differentiates this forum from almost ALL others.

John, thank you for bringing this thread back on track.

Okay.. now I diverted.

Back again... Jerri noticed that the RR tire seems toed in and there may be caster issues. Having replaced ALL Heim ends, the lengths of all those adjusting rods is only approximate until I can get a proper alignment. Thence, we may need to see if there is an issue with the rear end's power delivery balance.

mike

 

[93Rubie]

YOU NEED a proper 4 WHEEL ALIGNMENT. PERIOD. Having done all that work, you need it. Have it done by someone who knows what they are doing and then re-evaluate. I am willing to bet it all your "symptoms" go away.

 

[WhalePirot]

Ok, I thought I said that; the car will get one by a first class shop as soon as the bodywork is finished.

Jerri is a fine mechanic, too, perhaps one of the top two stroke tuners around, among other talents. I know this is not a two stroke issue, but I have seen him do things that factory manuals said could not be done. He asked if the rear end was a clutch type, which I think it is.

Rubie, I hope you're right.