TPI upgrade costs

[grumpyvette]

theres several guys on this site running them now, (custom stealth rams) theres several guys on several other sites running them also, EVERYONE so far has reported back that once they got it tuned correctly for the massive increase in airflow that in was a major increase in the engines abillity to make hp in the 4000rpm-6500rpm ranges
again look at the dyno results, vs a ported siamese aftermarket base, the CUSTOM STEALTH RAM pulls hard to over 6600rpm
keep in mind a stock TPI flows about 200cfm
a moddified tpi flows about 230cfm
a super ram flows about 245-250cfm
a stealthram flows 275plus (300cfm with port work) CFM WITH LONG ENOUGH RUNNER FOR GOOD TQ
a mini ram flows about 280cfm but has extremely short runners
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/dyno021105/webpage021105.html
if your interested heres a few links

link
edelbrock base
used TPI

vortec tpi base
compare that to a super ram at $1300 plus

link

or the mimi ram at $1250
link

pictures you might want to look at

 

[69MyWay]

Grumpy,

As I mentioned in the other thread....what is the "real" cost of the stealth ram?

There is more to it than bolting it on and driving.

You either have to spend another $1,000 on custom hood and paint work to make room, or find a aluminum fabrication shop to cut the manifold down and resize it.

I think you should make those numbers crystal clear before you convince anybody to order one.

All the other alternatives are "plug and play" parts, so the cost you see is the cost you get.


Thanks,

Chris

 

[grumpyvette]

http://fasterdeals.com/vette/index.html

cost for the swap to the custonm stealth ram is about $800 in most cases if you buy the package deal,(custom plenum, base,fuel rails,fuel pressure regulator and you find a good salvage yard small base HEI distributor, if you buy a HOLLEY 890-160 the price jumps to about $1000, thats still a much lower price than the $1250-$1300 that the MINI RAM and SUPER RAM sell for new
if you already have a STEALTH RAM BASE and FUEL RAILS just the custom PLENUM is $275

 

[Ken]

Grump, those pictures are waaaay too large. Please reduce their size.

 

[69MyWay]

Hey Grumpy,

What about the other costs to either mod the hood or cut the manifold? How do you think thos play in. Obviously the initial start up prices is sweet.

Did you cut your manifold yourself, or have a pro do it? What kind of cost, and how do you insure no damage is done to the manifold for flow characteristics?


My guess is $1,000 on the hood mods for somebody that has to use a body shop to do the work, and about $400 for a do-it-yourselfer and a week to a month in time and labor if you otherwise work a 40 hour job.

Same problem with the Sharks...You can't get a decent manifold to fit under the stock hood without an extreme drop down base, and going to a custom hood.

Speed costs....how fast do we want to go?

 

[grumpyvette]

theres no hood mods necessary thats the main IDEA with the custom stealth ram
you can buy a custom made stealth ram EFI intake combo thats designed to fit under the C-4 (1985-1991 corvettte TPI) and it fits under the stock hood

custom stealth ram

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/dyno021105/webpage021105.html

 

[Blown Vette]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=582814

There is a much higher quality piece in the above thread. Also the design is much better in my view. Also if you get a MINI RAM and go to sell it you will loose very little money due to a high resale. I doubt many would be interested in a painted box. I think that makes it looks cheap.

 

[69MyWay]

Ah...so this one does fit. Sorry, I did not catch that before.

Seems to me you posted much before about how it was too tall, but I guess that was not the "custom" stealth design.

What is that bit at the end of the CF thread where you mention the other fellow took your design?

 

[8388]

QUESTION ?

How much does it need to be lowered by the clear the vette hood ?

What's the height difference between it when lowered, and the factory tpi ?

 

[grumpyvette]

I won,t get into details other than to say, that was the first proto-type plenum design I took to frank, he took my idea, told me to (#$#$%^) and redesigned it to make it a cheap to manufacture,THIN folded aluminum design , that PROTO TYPE he sells was never tested on a running engine to my knowledge before he offered it for sale , my original similar version FAILED TESTING FOR SEVERAL REASONS, he still sells it
I got a second company to build and test the next 8 proto types, the correct design is sold by
stealthram link
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/dyno021105/webpage021105.html
the CHEVY TPI is about 9.5" tall at the rear and about 8.8" tall at the back of the throttle body
the stock stealth ram is 10" tall front to back with a strait forward level throttle body mount and won,t fit under a stock C-4 corvette hood
the
stealthram link
is about 9" tall front to back with a down angled throttle body for increased clearance and can very easily be made 8.5/8' tall with minor machine work for greater than stock clearances IT will fit under an unmodified stock corvette hood
it was tested ON CORVETTES for several months BEFORE being offered for sale
its powder coated to stop corosion
its powder coated to slow heat transfer from the hot engine compartment to the air in the plenum
It does NOT have internal bolts that can come loose and fall into an intake port
it has no top gasket to leak
it has greater distributor clearance,

 

[Blown Vette]

For what it is worth a guy in PA has been making this manifold and plenum for ten years to fit on a C4. He took a used tunnel ram base and converted it for EFI and made a plenum. It works OK not as well as described here.

Powder coating increased intake temps. Proven fact. The aluminum will not corrode but the powder coating does look like it is hiding something. The quality of the other plenum is obvious to those that know what to look for.

I noticed the photo on the sales link and the engine in the photo looks to be very poorly done. The attention to detail is poor at best. Just look at the way the plug wires are tied together. Most kids in high school auto shop know why that is a big mistake. Personally I would not use this type of manifold but that is me. If I did I would want the part to be of the highest quality and the black one is not. The better choice is obvious.

I did notice that in previous post that the better plenum was tested on a flow bench. I don’t know what the truth is between the two guys but the replies here are vague and one sided and the guy with the better plenum has not been posting on any forums that I have seen.

 

[corvettecrazy]

... The attention to detail is poor at best. Just look at the way the plug wires are tied together. Most kids in high school auto shop know why that is a big mistake...

being in high school and not allowed to be in the auto shop class may I ask why the way the plug wires are tied is a bad thing??

 

[Mad-Mic]

being in high school and not allowed to be in the auto shop class may I ask why the way the plug wires are tied is a bad thing??

wires tied like that cause the spark to jump across the wires. thats why they need to have a gap between the wires and not all bundled together. can't remember the term but if say #8 cylinder is firing the spark could jump to a different wire cause problems.

 

[Ken]

It is a phenomenon known as inductive crossfire.

When two wires are routed close to each other, and happen to follow the firing order of the engine, the spark from one wire could be induced into the other wire. This would cause the other cylinder to ignite too far advanced and will cause detonation.

For example, the firing order of a small block Chevrolet is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Notice that cylinders 5 and 7 are next to each in both the firing order, and the in their position in the block. If the spark from the #5 plug wire is induced into the #7 wire, a spark will occur in the cylinder causing detonation. Sooner or later engine damage will occur. :blow

_ken

 

[rrubel]

This is getting slightly off topic, but I know there are some cars that fire multiple plugs on every cycle, regardless of whether it's a power cycle or not. I want to say it's called "wasted spark." How then would one prevent premature detonation in this case? Seems that even firing two plugs at once could cause problems.
[RICHR]

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

This is getting slightly off topic, but I know there are some cars that fire multiple plugs on every cycle, regardless of whether it's a power cycle or not. I want to say it's called "wasted spark."

¨Lost or wasted spark¨ is used on engines that have pistons exactly 180º apart, i.e., Pancake engines.

When the spark hits one piston is on the compression stroke while the opposite piston is on the exhaust stroke. The ¨wasted spark¨ is fired in a cylinder with the exhaust valve open, no compression and very little burnt gas so no harm is done.

 

[KANE]

THE PRICE----

OUCH!!!!!!!

Thats the cost of doing business I guess.

I'd rathe have AN fittings on the fuel rail though. I also like my large head distributor and REALLY don't want to change it.

But if it were just the rails, manifold and plenum.... I'd spend $500 for it. $750 is too much for me if I have to spend another $200 or so on the parts to swap the distributor.

 

[grumpyvette]

your CORRECT IF YOU THINK the HOLLEY STEALTH RAM LOOKS LIKE THE BEST CHOICE!
the HOLLEY STEALTH RAM FLOWS at 275cfm out of the box, can easily reach 300cfm with minor port work the stock TPI has a hard time flowing 230cfm even with minor port work, look here
most of this info is right off the accel,holley,edelbrock, and TPIS sites, add a little math and the results become much clearer!!!
GETTING YOUR Intake....... length ....... port in -- out
Stock GM Base--- 6.375"------ 1.47"- 1.96x1.2
TPiS base------ -6.125"------ 1.75"- 2.09x1.28
Accel base----- -6.125"------ 1.75"- 2.09x1.28
Holley base------- 6” runner 2.3”- 1.9”x 1.23 (2.337 sq inches)
Runners
Stock TPI----- -- 7.250"------1.470" round(1.70 sq inchs)
SLP ----------- - 6.625"------1.600" round (2.01 sq inchs)
Accel LTR------- 6.625"------1.615" round (2.05 sq inchs)
TPiS----------- 7.625"------1.660" round (2.168 sq inchs)
Mini ram -----3.5”
LT1 ----------3”
Runners (measured individually)
Stock....................203.17 cfm
ACCEL................242.02 cfm
Extrude/ACCEL...275.83 cfm
Super Ram............289.18 cfm
Intake manifold with 3/8 inch radiused intlet
.............................222.45 cfm
Holley stealth ram ………..275cfm
Stock intake manifold with runner
Stock....................198.72 cfm
ACCEL................213.52 cfm
Extrude/ACCEL....217.11 cfm
Super Ram............220.67 cfm
Holley stealth ram …..275cfm

ACCEL Hi-Flow intake manifold with 3/8 inch
radiused inlet.........251.51 cfm
ACCEL Hi-Flow intake manifold with runner
Stock....................215.83 cfm
ACCEL................232.53 cfm
Extrude/ACCEL....243.21 cfm
Super Ram............240.24 cfm
Extrude-Honed ACCEL Hi-Flow intake
manifold with 3/8 inch radiused inlet
............................275.83 cfm
Extrude-Honed ACCEL Hi-Flow intake
manifold with ACCEL runner
............................266.94 cfm
Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold
(Stock)..................286.51 cfm
Edelbrock Victor Jr.
.............................275.24 cfm

HOLLEY STEALTH RAM
Stock…………………………… 275cfm
Ported…………………………..300cfm
Runner lengths
Stock tpi manifold 8” runners 11.25”, cylinder head 6” total 25.25”
Accel super ram manifold 8” runners 7” cylinder head 6” total 21”
Holley stealth ram manifold 6.26” ” cylinder head 6” total 12.26”
Edelbrock performer RPM runners 6” ” cylinder head 6” total 12”
Edelbrock vic jr , runner length 5.5” ” ” cylinder head 6” total 11.5”


Now play with the figures in the calculators below, what youll find is that the if your using a 350 size engine as a guide BTW THE INDICATED Torque PEAK IS WHERE THE CYLINDER FILLING EFFICIENCY TENDs TO PEAK due to RUNNER CROSS SECTIONAL AREA,AND THE HP PEAK RANGE IS WHERE THE RUNNERS TEND TO BE MOST EFFECTIVE, DUE TO HARMONICS/INERTIA in THE AIR FLOWING THRU THEM THATS WHY THEY ARE SOMETIMES A FAIRLY WIDE RPM RANGE SPREAD. you can of course raise the tq peak with cam timing and porting and differant header designs but the harmonic range will tend to stay fairly steady in the intake ports, and yes increasing the displacement tends to lower the rpm ranges

the tpi runner length is ideal for peak tq 3427rpm and 2700-4000rpm for peak hp

the super ram is ideal for peak tq at 4032rpm and 3300rpm-4800rpm for peak hp

holleys stealth ram runner length is ideal at 4700 for peak tq and 5618rpm to 6282rpm for peak hp

the mini ram and lt1 intakes are ideal for peak tq at about 5200rpm and 7244rpm to 8101rpm for peak hp

now KEEP FIRMLY IN MIND the engines tend to enter valve float and get close to engine red line by 6300-6700rpm depending on your combo' after running all the available combos, Ive found a HOLLEY STEALTH RAM is CURRENTLY THE BEST CHOICE,ESPECIALLY IF MATCHED TO GOOD CYLINDERHEADS AND THE CORRECT CAM
[/b]





http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html


http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html

 

[KANE]

It would appear the most useable one is the stalth ram.

New twist- EMMISSIONS!!!

I don't see a port for the EGR- is there an exemption order?

If so, that would open it up to a broader market.

Well, there is always the remote method - an EGR pipe system that runs through a fitting to the manifold using an EGR valve configured to be in between.

Hmmm that may be a plan.....
Machine the EGR portion-ed piece out of an old manifold so you get the bolt threads and the main chunk of it. Then seal off the inlet side to a pipe fitting to the exhaust. Then seal off the outlet side to a pipe fiting to the manifold. place it in a conspicuous location on near the manifold. Cobble it together to a GM control system and GM style harness....