Question: Tranny swap escalation - Flywheel/Throwout question

[VetteVirgin]

As these projects typically do, my M20 tranny swap in the 61 has escalated into a slightly larger project with a few questions.
During removal of the M21 I discovered a 153 tooth flywheel with an 11" clutch, the correct 553 bellhousing with no front cover, block mounted starter (reason for no front cover?), and a "custom" Hurst shifter with welded-in shift handle.
I already planned to replace the shifter and linkage, so that was no big surprise, but the 153 tooth flywheel and 11" clutch was unexpected (if I'd looked more closely at the starter bolt pattern the flywheel wouldn't have been a surprise either).
This is all attached to a early 70s Gen 1 CE block 350.

I already have the correct 61 throwout bearing, fork and pivot ball.

Note: The clutch on the 12" flywheel was actually a 10.5", not an 11.

I am planning to install the following:
Phoenix Friction 57-61 OE replacement flywheel
Pheonix Friction 61 clutch
61 OE starter and front cover
61 OE shifter with muncie linkage

My questions are:
How does the starter bracket/brace mount? I know I saw a diagram somewhere but danged if I can find it now.
I came to my senses and scrapped the Centerforce clutch and Jegs flywheel, so my original question is moot. OE replacement will be just fine for now. Anybody have any experience with Phoenix Friction?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

DT

 

[JohnZ]

How does the starter bracket/brace mount? I know I saw a diagram somewhere but danged if I can find it now.

C1 bellhousing-mounted starters didn't use a starter brace; that didn't start until 1963 block-mounted starters.

 

[VetteVirgin]

Thanks John! Paragon has it in their C1 starter parts list so I just assumed it needed one! Must have been a C2 diagram I saw.

 

[VetteVirgin]

Bubba wins...for now...maybe

I ordered my parts for the tranny swap Sunday and UPS delivered them Friday. Unfortunately Paragon back-ordered the Muncie linkage. Is it possible to order more than three items from Paragon without at least one being back-ordered?
So my first decision was to either install the Hurst and drive this weekend or wait for Paragon. I decided to postpone the decision until I reached that point in the installation. Unfortunately linkage turned out to be the least of my parts troubles.
Removing the old pilot bushing managed to waste half a day. I attempted the "hydraulic" method with bearing grease, failed, drove all over town chasing a puller, which failed also, tried grease again, failed, then got medieval on it with a combo of drill and puller and it came out like grenade shrapnel.
I found the new bushing I had ordered from Paragon a year ago and surprise, it's a cheap Chinese "iron mix"! I have to tell you I was a bit shocked considering their reputation. Luckily the Sachs clutch kit had a proper bronze bushing, which went into the freezer for a cool down.
While I waited for the pilot bushing to cool I opened the flywheel from Phoenix Friction and received the next parts blow - it was only drilled for a 11" clutch! I double checked part numbers and it is indeed the flywheel they are representing as OE replacement for all 14" C1s. So please take note - do not order a flywheel for your C1 from Phoenix Friction!
I double checked the clutch assembly and it is a proper 10.5" 61 unit. I also discovered that Phoenix Friction's prices are significantly lower on their web site than through Ebay. They must be trying to recover the paypal fees!
It was at this point that Bubba bit me in my big ole butt.
I decided to test fit the cover panel on the bellhousing and found that when Bubba did the 350 engine swap and learned that his block mounted starter for the 12" flywheel wouldn't fit with the lower portion of the bellhousing starter ring in the way, what did Bubba do? Find a 14" flywheel and use the correct starter? Of course not! Bubba just lopped of the offending portion of the housing along with the bottom starter mounting hole!
So now I have a choice to make.
Do I continue with the "debubbafication" process and shell out another $500 for a non-bubbified oh so rare and pricey "553" bellhousing and who knows how much for a refurbished 14" flywheel from Paragon that actually is drilled for a 10.5" clutch?
Do I throw in the towel and resurface the old 12 inch flywheel and be satisfied with correcting the throwout fork and bearing, the tranny, the shifter and the linkage and save the housing and starter for the eventual engine replacement down the road?
Do I go "bubba" myself and try installing a correct 14" flywheel and mount the starter using the two remaining holes in the housing along with a starter brace from a midyear? Could this possibly work or would it eventually (or immediately) destroy what remains of the starter mount on the housing? The housing is pretty much a write-off anyway so what would be the downside other than possibly having to call a tow truck when the housing snaps? At least I'd be able to install the lower cover panel and in the meantime I could work on trying to find a 553 for something less than $500.
I guess a fourth option, since nothing in the driveline is correct anyway would be to find a cheaper pre-60 iron bellhousing and call it good.
I don't know what I ever did to Bubba, but he sure is kicking my butt!
On a positive note, at least I managed to install the pilot bearing!
I think that's enough CAC therapy for one post! I feel much better now!
I'd love to know your opinions on the four options or any other option you may think of!
Thanks in advance!

DT

P.S. I think I've decided that any wrenching performed under the hood, on your feet or sitting down is "fun" and anything done on your back under the car is "work"!

 

[firstgear]

I ordered my parts for the tranny swap Sunday and UPS delivered them Friday. Unfortunately Paragon back-ordered the Muncie linkage. Is it possible to order more than three items from Paragon without at least one being back-ordered?
So my first decision was to either install the Hurst and drive this weekend or wait for Paragon. I decided to postpone the decision until I reached that point in the installation. Unfortunately linkage turned out to be the least of my parts troubles.
Removing the old pilot bushing managed to waste half a day. I attempted the "hydraulic" method with bearing grease, failed, drove all over town chasing a puller, which failed also, tried grease again, failed, then got medieval on it with a combo of drill and puller and it came out like grenade shrapnel.
I found the new bushing I had ordered from Paragon a year ago and surprise, it's a cheap Chinese "iron mix"! I have to tell you I was a bit shocked considering their reputation. Luckily the Sachs clutch kit had a proper bronze bushing, which went into the freezer for a cool down.
While I waited for the pilot bushing to cool I opened the flywheel from Phoenix Friction and received the next parts blow - it was only drilled for a 11" clutch! I double checked part numbers and it is indeed the flywheel they are representing as OE replacement for all 14" C1s. So please take note - do not order a flywheel for your C1 from Phoenix Friction!
I double checked the clutch assembly and it is a proper 10.5" 61 unit. I also discovered that Phoenix Friction's prices are significantly lower on their web site than through Ebay. They must be trying to recover the paypal fees!
It was at this point that Bubba bit me in my big ole butt.
I decided to test fit the cover panel on the bellhousing and found that when Bubba did the 350 engine swap and learned that his block mounted starter for the 12" flywheel wouldn't fit with the lower portion of the bellhousing starter ring in the way, what did Bubba do? Find a 14" flywheel and use the correct starter? Of course not! Bubba just lopped of the offending portion of the housing along with the bottom starter mounting hole!
So now I have a choice to make.
Do I continue with the "debubbafication" process and shell out another $500 for a non-bubbified oh so rare and pricey "553" bellhousing and who knows how much for a refurbished 14" flywheel from Paragon that actually is drilled for a 10.5" clutch?
Do I throw in the towel and resurface the old 12 inch flywheel and be satisfied with correcting the throwout fork and bearing, the tranny, the shifter and the linkage and save the housing and starter for the eventual engine replacement down the road?
Do I go "bubba" myself and try installing a correct 14" flywheel and mount the starter using the two remaining holes in the housing along with a starter brace from a midyear? Could this possibly work or would it eventually (or immediately) destroy what remains of the starter mount on the housing? The housing is pretty much a write-off anyway so what would be the downside other than possibly having to call a tow truck when the housing snaps? At least I'd be able to install the lower cover panel and in the meantime I could work on trying to find a 553 for something less than $500.
I guess a fourth option, since nothing in the driveline is correct anyway would be to find a cheaper pre-60 iron bellhousing and call it good.
I don't know what I ever did to Bubba, but he sure is kicking my butt!
On a positive note, at least I managed to install the pilot bearing!
I think that's enough CAC therapy for one post! I feel much better now!
I'd love to know your opinions on the four options or any other option you may think of!
Thanks in advance!

DT

P.S. I think I've decided that any wrenching performed under the hood, on your feet or sitting down is "fun" and anything done on your back under the car is "work"!

I wish I could give you some good advice on the flywheel, clutch and bell housing....in my case I bought from Hurst Drivelines my 5 speed tranny along with a McLeods bellhousing, clutch and pressure plate. All of the mated up nicely.....so I didn't have the bubba stuff to deal with in that area that you have had. I had to deal with other bubba stuff, but not that!

good luck.....

 

[VetteVirgin]

I wish I could give you some good advice on the flywheel, clutch and bell housing....in my case I bought from Hurst Drivelines my 5 speed tranny along with a McLeods bellhousing, clutch and pressure plate. All of the mated up nicely.....so I didn't have the bubba stuff to deal with in that area that you have had. I had to deal with other bubba stuff, but not that!

good luck.....

Did the McLeods housing come with the mounting tab for the z-bar pivot ball or did you have to fabricate a solution?

 

[firstgear]

Did the McLeods housing come with the mounting tab for the z-bar pivot ball or did you have to fabricate a solution?

this was my original set up that came out of the car, which wasnt correct to begin with....but what I had to work with...it bolted right up

here is the McLeods bell housing.....I got POR15 happy and painted it black....

 

[firstgear]

here is a zoomed in area of the bell housing....this should be easier to see

 

[firstgear]

this is the explosion proof bellhousing with a plate that mounts to the engine side as well....

 

[firstgear]

here is a link to McLeod for bell housing instructions....not sure if you need these or not...but here you go....

McLeod Racing - Bellhousing Instructions#

 

[firstgear]

McLeod Racing - Bellhousings

 

[firstgear]

not cheap...Summit Racing has them for $538

McLeod Industries 8640 - McLeod SFI Bellhousings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I would call and get it from Hurst Driveline...explain what you need and they will get exactly what you want...you could go through Summit Technical but I think you run the risk of having to send back for an exchange....less hassle going to people that really know.....nothing against Summit since I buy a lot of stuff form them, but when you dont want to be inconvienced, it is easier to work with someone that knows exactly what you need.

me, I could jump in the car and drive to Summit to see....it is about a 50 minute drive one way....

 

[firstgear]

you might want to get the extra long dowel pins if you go with a McLeod and use the plate between the housing and the engine.....the extra length will come in handy..

Moroso 37932 - Moroso Extra Long Bellhousing Dowel Pins - Overview - SummitRacing.com

 

[VetteVirgin]

Thanks for the detailed info and pics FG! The Mcleod would be pretty much the same cost as a replacement 553 housing, so it is definitely worth considering as an alternative, but how did you deal with the clutch linkage? That tab has only one tapped hole. Did you convert to hydraulic with a slave cylinder?

 

[firstgear]

Thanks for the detailed info and pics FG! The Mcleod would be pretty much the same cost as a replacement 553 housing, so it is definitely worth considering as an alternative, but how did you deal with the clutch linkage? That tab has only one tapped hole. Did you convert to hydraulic with a slave cylinder?

no, there are 2 tapped holes.....call Hurst Driveline, they will take care of you....I would get you a photo of existing set up, but car is in trailer out in back garage.....

 

[magicv8]

if it were me - I'd put in a new clutch, pressure plate, TO bearing, and a GM roller pilot bearing, and let the rest go.

my 2¢

 

[VetteVirgin]

if it were me - I'd put in a new clutch, pressure plate, TO bearing, and a GM roller pilot bearing, and let the rest go.

my 2¢

That's pretty much what I decided to do. The old 153T flywheel was actually in really good shape and it fit the new clutch. I'll save the bellhousing, flywheel and starter for the eventual engine swap down the road.
I think a new clutch assembly, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, release fork, pivot ball, shifter, shift rods, rebuilt M20, U-joints, yoke and tranny mount are more than enough for now!
Thanks for all the suggestions!

DT

 

[VetteVirgin]

Three weekends and two orders from Paragon and its finally back together! My first C1 tranny swap and clutch job is completed!
The difference in driveability is astounding! The driveline finally feels solid and John Z is absolutely right: the M20(early 2.56 1st) with a 3.36 diff is a sweet combination!
I'm giving myself 2 weeks to enjoy the fruits of my labor then its time for the A/C install.