Transmissions: richmond vs Tremec

[WhalePirot]

Transmissions: Richmond vs Tremec

I am kicking around the idea of swapping in an aftermarket manual and not finding what I want in the forum(s). I'll need one rated for 600 ft.lbs. minimum.

Anyone have some great reading material on this topic? Thx.

 

[vetteoz]

Overview of Richmond 6 spd install
Corvette Richmond 6-Speed Transmission Installation

TKO 600 install , a 5spd but install should be similar
TKO install pics - Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums

[h=1][/h]

 

[WhalePirot]

thanks for those, esp so quickly. The keisler kit looks like it's almost a no-brainer.

I may have no choice as IDK that Richie offers a strong enough box. Plus, I want a low overdrive, preferable .50; a double O'drive would be great, and I think Tremec makes one as a 6 spd. You can see in my signature that the 3.73 plus the torquey 409 makes plenty of power over a broad power band, to handle wide ratios and I typically don't drag race. Oft, I skip gears.

I'd really like feedback from enthusiasts on what they liked/disliked.

 

[Hib Halverson]

There are no six-speeds anywhere with a .5 overdrive.

Richmond Gear makes a bolt-in kit for early C4s which replaces the Doug Nash.

A Richmond six-speed is a "single overdrive" but is designed to work with a tall axle ratio. I run a Richmond six-speed with a 3.08 axle and it works very well. My engine is a 460.

 

[xfirez51]

Ever think of using a ZF-6. I swapped one
in place of the 4+3 for the 84 I had.

 

[WhalePirot]

thx

Richmond Gear makes a bolt-in kit for early C4s which replaces the Doug Nash.

Yes, thanks.

A Richmond six-speed is a "single overdrive" but is designed to work with a tall axle ratio. I run a Richmond six-speed with a 3.08 axle and it works very well. My engine is a 460.

In retrospect and primarily due to how this car has morphed over the decades, it now has a cryo-hardened 3.54. Were I to change that again, it'd be to a 3.07 or so. How noisy is the Ritchie, Hib?

Ever think of using a ZF-6. I swapped one in place of the 4+3 for my 84.

Yes, but know not a lot about them, how much power they can handle or the difficulty in that retrofit. I'll look into it, but am eager to know real world pros/cons with them.

I await info from a local CAC member who may have one.

 

[xfirez51]

The ZF swap is pretty straightforward. It bolts to
the back of an SBC. Clutch linkage is works off stock master or you could
consider using dual clutch system. We have a few ZRs w 600lbft using the ZF.
I did the swap in my garage. Just need 90 crossbeam and
correct yoke. Look for a Black Label.

 

[WhalePirot]

Just need 90 crossbeam and correct yoke. Look for a Black Label.

'90 Vette crossmember?

Black label yoke?

Any links? Those below are helpful, too.

And here I thought the Keisler was a kit, using a Tremec box. :eyerole

 

[xfirez51]

'90 Vette crossmember?

Black label yoke?

Any links? Those below are helpful, too.

And here I thought the Keisler was a kit, using a Tremec box. :eyerole

Black Label is a tag you'll find on the ZF-6. There were 2 types, a black and a blue label. The black label is generally considered to be stronger w a straighter cut to the gears.

The crossbeam is what connects the trans to the diff. The ZF-6 is a longer trans than the 4+3, so you'll need the crossbeam that was used for the automatics. The driveshaft will also need to be shorter than the 4+3. Then the yoke at the front of the driveshaft needs to be a ZF yoke since it goes in deeper into the tail section of the trans. You'll also need to switch the wiring for the reverse switch but use the ZF-6 harness connector

 

[vetteoz]

The ZF-6 is a longer trans than the 4+3, so you'll need the crossbeam that was used for the automatics.
The driveshaft will also need to be shorter than the 4+3.

No it's not

 

[vetteoz]

but know not a lot about them, how much power they can handle

Black/Blue Tag ZF6 - Corvette Forum

the difficulty in that retrofit.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/zf6/

Helps to have a donor car for the many small pieces and the trans tunnel section required for the relocated shifter

Anything else ?

 

[Hib Halverson]

Yes, thyanks.

In retrospect and primarily due to how this car has morphed over the decades, it now has a cryo-hardened 3.54. Were I to change that again, it'd be to a 3.07 or so. How noisy is the Ritchie, Hib?

(snip)

3.54 gear, eh. Those are rare. Hang on to them.

The Richmond is quieter than the ZF S6-40 and it's also lighter, but the ZF is as strong or stronger and shifts much nicer because it's a modern trans with an internal rail shift. The Richmond ROD is an excellent choice for certain applications, primarily older cars, but it's an ancient design.

Now that I know you have 3.54 gears, if it were me, in spite of the gear rattle and first gear growl, I'd put a ZF in the car. I'd also put an aluminum flywheel in it while you have it apart.

Sadly, I just sold my spare "black label" ZF to a guy in Finland. I'd have much rather sold it to you.

Keep in mind that the ZF's input torque rating was 450-lbs/ft, but...that's using GM brutal durability schedule. That aftermarket doesn't use such a severe test to rate their transmissions. As long as you're using a premium gear lube in the trans, you do not intend to use full engine torque in sixth gear and you have a proper clutch, the ZF is likely good for 600-700 lbs/ft torque.

 

[WhalePirot]

Black/Blue Tag ZF6 - Corvette Forum

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/zf6/

Helps to have a donor car for the many small pieces and the trans tunnel section required for the relocated shifter

Anything else ?

I found much of that and CC'd it to a doc file for later printing, or at least reference. I did get the nice list of all the bits, from Central Coaster copied, too.

3.54 gear, eh. Those are rear. Hang on to them.

Really.. wow. My rear end shop (Anaheim) searched quite a bit to find them, after I broke the stocker case etc. He had, as I wrote (with pics), the case and all internals cryo-treated, saying I could break a D44, too.

The Richmond is quieter than the ZF S6-40 and it's also lighter, but the ZF is as strong or stronger and shifts much nicer because it's a modern trans with an internal rail shift. The Richmond ROD is an excellent choice for certain applications, primarily older cars, but it's an ancient design.

I have heard so little about the Ritchie, the sole comment from a shop in SD saying the one he'd installed was removed due to noise. Heck, I am an ancient design and actually like plenty of the older, typically overbuilt, long lasting items. Hence, our two 1955 cars.

Now that I know you have 3.54 gears, if it were me, in spite of the gear rattle and first gear growl, I'd put a ZF in the car. I'd also put an aluminum flywheel in it while you have it apart.

Noise is not so much an issue, for me. The exhaust is very noisy, more so than I'd prefer, but such are Flowmasters. The redone stereo can overpower darn near anything, anyway, when I choose.

I just sold my spare "black label" ZF to a guy in Finland. I'd have much rather sold it to you.

Hot Rod Roy made mention of that today. Now I know of whence he spoke.

Keep in mind that the ZF's input torque rating was 450-lbs/ft, but...that's using GM brutal durability schedule. That aftermarket doesn't use such a severe test to rate their transmissions. As long as you're using a premium gear lube in the trans, you do not intend to use full engine torque in sixth gear and you have a proper clutch, the ZF is likely good for 600-700 lbs/ft torque.

I saw the bit about GM's ratings. The biggest concerns seem to center on perfection in the hydraulic clutch, once all else is sorted. Thanks for the note on 6th gear full power. I'd prefer not to have any black 'easter eggs', but practically speaking, doubt it'd be an issue.

It seems that ZF Doc sets them up to largely eliminate the gearbox rattle, via proper shimming inside. I'd probably not had chosen the aluminum flywheel, so will look more into that. I have a contact at McLeod so may well go that route. My current clutch has usually chattered, making it tough to launch smoothly. I was waiting until I needed to pull all that apart again, despite its not being worn out.

There are two ZFs locally, ATM. One is at a Corvette salvage place includes all needed parts for a conversion, they claim. The other, in Ventura, has all new internals, but needs reassembly; about $300 difference, between the two. So, I'll have to review and absorb what's needed for parts; bell housing, etc, and decide.. or go with Roy's Tremec, if that is workable. Not sure I want a used and unknown box behind this motor and a rebuild would radically alter the $$.

I truly appreciate the time and guidance from y'all. Rather nice not to be the pay-and-try-it-out guy, this time. I've had plenty of that with the Rustang GT powered Nash and more to come with my '55 Effie (C4 underpinnings)

 

[WhalePirot]

My drag racing cousin just told me that Richmond was sold and no parts are available.

 

[hcbph]

Tranny

I can speak a little to a Tremec as I have an 86 convertible L98 engine with a Tremec 5 speed and 3.07 rear. IIRC it's a TR3550 so it's not the heaviest 5 speed model out there and I don't know if it's available any more new but I believe it can be gotten as a rebuilt unit from Tremec.
I think this one is geared more for something like a 2.9x rear end, because you have to shift sooner because it seems like the rpm's climb alot faster than they did in my Chevelle's, truck and Spitfire.
I was under it right after getting it and as far as I can tell it uses the original 4+3 bellhousing, slave cylinder, clutch throwout and arm and I think the original clutch and flywheel based solely on what I could see on the lift. Shifter seems tight but it is a little awkward getting into 5th gear, takes a little extra push to get through to that gate (more than I expected), though not bad.
From what I can find about the only mods that were done to the car for the tranny swap was there's a converter to change the signal from the trans to work with the digital speedometer. The installer could have done a better job of mounting it but it does work fine and that's not a fault of Tremec.
I bought this as a cruiser, so none of this is a show stopper for me. It drives well and does what I want. According to the tach, it's turning around 1800 rpm's at 75 mph in 5th gear so it gets good gas mileage.

That's about all I know and can say on the subject.

 

[WhalePirot]

gracia

HotRodRoy brought over his Tremec 600 display case (needs all internals) and some printed material; such a great guy with a TON of know-how. Hurst Drivelines does a kit using Tremecs and I have asked for a quote. Their kit is complete, as was Keisler's, with minor mods (extra holes in the C-beam, tunnel mod, front Yoke change and the Dakota Digital speedo box). The existing clutch, flywheel and hydraulic actuator are fine. The overdrive (TKO-600 street) .62, is close to the 4+3's .67.

My stock '84 turned 2000 RPM at 70mph with the 3.07 rear. Plugging the 285/40x17" and 3.54 rear into the Hurst calculator, that number should be 2053 versus 1604 with the .50 of the ZF. This engine pulls rather well above 1500 RPM; near the bottom of torque curve rise. Actual amounts of driving the car and fuel economy (HA!) considerations will likely be secondary to comparative changeover costs.

Thx for the input.

 

[WhalePirot]

Hurst DL shows little or no interest in working with me, unless I just want to send $$ for a generic package kit. It reeks o a huge corporation that has lost any personal touch or even a decent way of tracking contacts.

How can any firm stay in the field of varied (specialized) applications with that approach?

 

[Hib Halverson]

My drag racing cousin just told me that Richmond was sold and no parts are available.

You sure about that?
I spoke to Richmond Gear's tech support today, but they were having problems on their end with the company phone system and I got cut off.

I'm going to try calling them again.

Back in 2011 Richmond was sold to Midwest truck parts but the web site still is available and still shows all their passenger car performance transmissions.

 

[WhalePirot]

Well, no. Thanks for that update. His application is quite different: a '31 Plymouth hot rod, with 6 Webers feeding a blown 1957 Hemi from an Imperial; a winning drag racer with it. I'll check more after I find out the true status of this 4+3. It became intermittent on the rare occasions I got to drive it, then shut down (lousy odor, too), during a brief canyon run.

I finally got it up in the air, dropped the O/D pan. The fluid smelled burned and was quite dirty; not much surprise there. I suspect the level was low, too.

No local place had the filter in stock, so I'll get a Wix and new fluid, probably Red Line and see if it works.

While this engine works it hard, I go pretty easy on the launches and shifts (clutch used), to save it. I wish I could whip up a much easier method to check the level and change the fluid.

 

[WhalePirot]

I found the filter grommet was partially off ad, atop the rest.

After reading a post elsewhere, from a tranny builder, I debated the choice. I'd bought Redline but his experience was not so good with "unnamed high end" synthetics, citing universal hard parts wear. I've long wondered why I lost, prematurely, a diffy in a Suburban and diffy and gearbox in the Vette, both having been swapped to an unnamed, high-end, and premium synthetic lube. I still believe there is wear benefit from higher viscosity oils, despite whatever term, "improved shear" or simply slipperier engineered lubes.

Think of slapping water versus syrup on a counter. The water offers little resistance to getting squeezed out while the more viscous fluid offers a liquid barrier; all related in my mind, to gear facings.

In the end, I am staying with the Redline,though generic ATF from someone's fav Chinese-import department store is reportedly just fine. the irritating part is getting the ATF into the box. I have tried many routes, over the decades; last being a hand pump designed for this very purpose. I hate plastic tools! This one will not suction from the container but excels at getting $18/qt. ATF on my arms and anything else nearby! Of course, the Redline bottle has a non-standard neck/cap, so I drained a 'regular' ATF bottle, transferred the princess juice into it, then used my (plastic) screw-on neck to drain into a piece of thinwall tubing, that happens to fit into the fill hole but snugs over 1/2" brass pipe (with 90* ell), which I custom cut to length. No wonder it takes hours to do simple chores!

The non-princess bottle barely fits above the front Y-header pipe, past the 4+3's switch wiring to allow most of it into the intended locale. Yaasoose Criminey! Now, to double check proper fill, then a ride to verify function.

No proper function during drive, dammit.