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two crashes due to repeated dysfunction of the acceleration system

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dominique

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Defect report of a safety and a engineering problem concerning my Corvette C5 bought on june 12th, 1998. No of chassis: 1G1 YY2 2G3 W51 229 86. Miles ~ 20.000 / Km ~ 32.000.

Introduction.

My Corvette C5 suffered from a serious and repeated dysfunction of the acceleration system due, -as reported in numerous other instances- to interferences in the electronic speed control of this vehicle. The consequence have been two crashes due to a sudden unexpected acceleration at full throttle, without any user intervention on the speed control of the vehicle.

Accidents description

First accident: april 26th, 2002

I was stopped at the entry of the parking garage where I have a parking spot. As I had the right foot on the footbrake pedal and was preparing to put my magnetic entry card in the reader machine, the engine of my Corvette suddenly raced and the car ploughed ahead at full throttle, although I continuously applied pressure on the brake pedal. The Corvette C5 accelerated forward at a terrific speed. The car stopped only after I quickly applied the parking brake and cut the ignition.

The car was repaired and appraised by the garage which had sold it to me. The head mechanic, assured me my car was in order when I took it back.

The repair expenses (car, gate of entry and automatic garage door) were very high.

In april/mai 2002, I requested that the garage Belle-Croix and GM Suisse consult a GM expert on that sort of accident. They did not comply with that request.

The dysfunction ocurred once again one year later.

Second accident : may 7th, 2003

As I parked at the bottom of my property, I had, at the end of this parking maneuver, the right foot on the brake pedal, (to slow the car down which at this time crawled, i.e. advanced without giving gas), when again the engine suddenly and violently accelerated. The Corvette stopped against a tree and the trailer of my daughter's boat, but only after I jammed on the brake and cut the ignition.

Remarks

At the time of these two accidents, the Corvette suddenly took off on it's own, the throttle in a full open position, without the driver stepping on the accelerator pedal. I was not able to have any kind of control with the foot brake. The brakes were not effective in stopping the car soon enough to avoid the two accidents. Only switching off the ignition was effective to stop the vehicle.

At the time of these two accidents, except for the factory installed, built in radio/CD, I did not use any electrical appliance such as cellular phone; I had my right foot on the brake pedal and the gear lever was in the Drive position.

When I bought this Corvette, at the time of its delivery, the garage prominently displayed Cadillac and Chevrolet logos touting the dealership factory-approved services and salesmen. This was later revealed to be false!

As any engineer knows, therefore not only one of the specialists in GM for such dysfunctions, like Mr Larry Hocken, given that electronic logic is sensitive to interferences and the Corvette C5 compartment is flooded with violents signals; it was imperative, after the first serious incident, to install a black box or timestamping recording device, filming and recording the actual foot position of the driver, the throttle and brake positions, engine rpm and vehicle speed in order to analyze a possible re-occurence of the event.

I am dismayed at the contempt that General Motor and Chevrolet has with regard to a GM customer, in adition a good customer. However, with the Corvette, in June 1998, I received a very interesting letter of John G Middlebrook, then Chevrolet General manager which said: "Corvette means as much to us as I know it means to you. We truly value our business and are committed to your total satisfaction and enthusiasm"! GM thus promised me, in June 1998, much more than what GM held so far! My Corvette C5 is a defective product, since, on two occasions already, it did not offer the safety which I could legitimely await, taking into account all the circumstances, and in particular of the use which can be reasonably awaited from a vehicle of this price and this power.

For a second identical incident, according to jurisprudence, when the cause of a breakdown remains unknown, the garage is supposed to be responsible. When, on April 26th 2002, I entrusted my Corvette C5 for repair purposes to the garage, it created contractual obligations on the parties. Like any repairing mechanical service, the garage/dealership thus accepted several obligations:

* to repair the vehicle,
* of safety
* and advice.

In other words, as of the moment when, following the first accident, the garage agreed to repair my Corvette C5, it accepted to give it back in perfect operating state and to counsel me correctly. This obligation of the garage is known as binding one.

Nobody of GM examined my Corvette after this first repair by the garage, as I had expressely requested. One can say that the garage was not diligently at all concerning this very important point. Evidently this is a serious professional misconduct.

Concerning the advice obligation: when my husband went to fetch the Corvette, the garage did not warn him, nor myself thereafter, therefore the customer, of the probability of a future repetition of the accident, including dysfunction of the electronics of this vehicle. Which any responsible mechanic must do, specially when it is safety issue, as it was obviously the case. On the contrary, the chief mechanic, assured my husband, who fetched my car at the dealership, that the Corvette C5 was repaired and in perfect order; that such an accident would not occur any more and that the GM specialist had controlled it. A garage mechanic knows that he is not a professional like others. He works on a very powerful object which can be dangerous in the event of a technical failure. Since my Corvette C5 was repaired by the garage, and afterward had the same accident, I regard this garage as the principal responsible for the second accident on May 7th, 2003. This garage did not correctly carry out the required work. Its execution was defective and insufficient, hence, the second accident. As of the responsability, even if the electronics of a Corvette C5 is more complex than wheel bolts, this second accident is not different from a serious personal injury suffered for a GM car owner because of the loss of a wheel badly tightened, after having entrusted his vehicle to a garage.

The manufacturer is the one liable for the electronic defects that were at the origin of the two accidents.

Had I known that a second identical accident could reproduce itself, I would have gotten rid of this vehicle after the first accident.

Conclusion

Being a surgeon, I cannot risk to drive again this "crazy" car. At the time of my first accident, I almost mowed down the parking garage guard. Neither could I take the risk to hurt somebody and I won't have any excuse if a third accident happened and neither would GM, Chevrolet or the garage.

Considering the gravity of this double and identical accident, I see myself forced, not only to renonce driving or using this Corvette anymore, but also to ask that all the Corvettes C5 be subject to a factory recall to control all their electronic, to correct the defects and origin of such dysfunctions and prevent any such accidents.

I have four more questions:

1. Do you know of other such accidents?

2. To which authorities and associations can I announce this defect?

3. Do you know an independent electrical and control enginner or widely recognized engineering institute, who can make a report on this double electronic control system malfunction and unexplained sudden acceleration of my Corvette C5?

4. Do you know a lawyer who is a specialist for such automotives problems?

Amarillys Taylor Schwander MD
 
While I sympathize with your concerns, I would not jump to the conclusion that there is a manufacturer's defect. If there was a manufacturer's defect, there would be many more similar events being reported. For example, look at the steering column lock recall (the steering column would lock-up while the car was being driven). I don't have exact numbers of cars that have experienced the steering column lock-up condition that prompted the recall, but in any event, there were way more than just one car that experienced the problem.

It would appear that the garage that you are taking your Corvette to for service is not a factory dealer. The first thing to do would be to find a factory dealer that has the full complement of diagnostic equipment (in particular, the Tech2 diagnostic scanner). The Powertrain Control Module has a historical memory which can assist in diagnosing what happened. Since there seems to be a problem with false advertising already (with your present garage), you will need to be very diligent in confirming that the new service facility is qualified to service the Corvette. I would imagine that GM can provide a list of authorized service facilities that are situated close to your location.

Lastly, are you absolutely certain that operator error is not involved? In the mid-1980s, there was a huge controversy regarding Audi cars and sudden acceleration - there were even fatalities where victims were crushed when the car suddenly accelerated. The outcome of an investigation by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (and a separate investigation by Audi) was operator error - the brake and accelerator pedals were too close together. I am not saying that you don't know the difference between brake and accelerator pedals; just that it is possible to press on both the brake and accelerator pedals when you are intending to press on the brake pedal alone.
 
I've been around C5's since they were first introduced in 1997 and been to MANY Corvette functions and met MANY Corvette people. I go to Eckler's cruises 2-3 times a year where thousands of Corvette people attend.

This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this.

Yours is an isolated incident. It's either the shop you're taking it to doesn't know what they're doing, or it isn't happening.

-Dave C. '04 Z06
 
dominique said:
Defect report of a safety and a engineering problem concerning my Corvette C5 bought on june 12th, 1998. No of chassis: 1G1 YY2 2G3 W51 229 86. Miles ~ 20.000 / Km ~ 32.000.

Introduction.

My Corvette C5 suffered from a serious and repeated dysfunction of the acceleration system due, -as reported in numerous other instances- to interferences in the electronic speed control of this vehicle. The consequence have been two crashes due to a sudden unexpected acceleration at full throttle, without any user intervention on the speed control of the vehicle.

(snip)

4. Do you know a lawyer who is a specialist for such automotives problems?

Amarillys Taylor Schwander MD

Let's be carful, here, folks. After reading point for, this looks kind of like a thinly veiled fishing expedtion trying to gain information to bolster the case for a lawsuit.

Clearly Dr. Schwander's car has a problem but none of the above is evidence of a factory defect. Also, if there was a wise spread problem with unintended acceleration with C5s, don't you think we'd know it by now?
 
cavettefan said:
While I sympathize with your concerns, I would not jump to the conclusion that there is a manufacturer's defect.

Lastly, are you absolutely certain that operator error is not involved? In the mid-1980s, there was a huge controversy regarding Audi cars and sudden acceleration - there were even fatalities where victims were crushed when the car suddenly accelerated. The outcome of an investigation by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (and a separate investigation by Audi) was operator error - the brake and accelerator pedals were too close together.
I would think this theory has strong possibility... I have never yet pushed both pedals on my C5 but I could see it easily happening.. I have to admit having done just that a couple of times in the past. I know it happened, I am having trouble remembering right now which car it was, but it did happen. Fortunately whichever vehicle it was didn't have enough HP to overcome the brake. I would also think that a lady wearing any kind of a heel could easily have the heel portion of the shoe pushing the accelerator pedal down much further and harder than the brake if the toe of the foot is turned just a little to the left such as when reaching out the window to access a gate card reader.. just a theory, but we all have the periodic mental and physical lapse...
 
Giving the benefit of the doubt...

It appears to me, from reading the described incidents, that the driver had already applied the brake with no problems. Brakes were applied once to a complete stop and another to a point of almost a complete stop. I would think a person having already depressed the brake pedal would then have a difficult time getting another portion of that same foot onto the gas pedal.

Also, further shooting the one-foot-two-pedal theory with holes, if the brake and throttle were being depressed at the same time I think the sound of the engine and forward motion of the vehicle would have alerted the driver, not allowed the driver to stop and nearly stop with no indication of problems.

I feel that while this problem may not be a widespread Corvette problem it certainly appears to be an isolated incident.

Now, to bring up driver error again...
What about the cruise control? I'm not familiar with the C5, so please bear with my reasoning here.
I had an Oldsmobile whose cruise control on/off switch was on the turn lever stalk, and when making turns you could accidentally engage the cruise control and the vehicle would accelerate, seemingly on its' own. I knew what the quirky problem was but I know any other driver unfamiliar with the car would be caught off-guard.
Heidi
 
Isnt it odd that there is an entire segment of the aftermarket auto-speed industry (Transbrakes / highspeed stall converters) that are designed to let the engine just come a little bit closer to overcoming the braking system with out stalling, but yet there continues to be cars that mysteriously can do this stock?


Has anyone ever driven a car where the engine can overpower the brakes?
 
warren s said:

Has anyone ever driven a car where the engine can overpower the brakes?
Yes, but then I replaced the master cylinder. ;LOL

I too would like to give this guy, the benefit of the doubt. However, without additional information, this is a non issue. I wish the guy the best of luck.

Mike
 
warren s said:
Has anyone ever driven a car where the engine can overpower the brakes?
I've never driven a car that could drive past its breaks.

I'm a member of the operator error contingent. It seems to me that the wrong pedal was being depressed.

Perhaps the parking garage had a video system set up that can show if the brake lights were lit during the accident?
 
Same here. I've never known any car that can drive beyond it's brakes. Especially from accelerating from standstill. If the front wheels were on loose gravel and the rears were on tarmac I could understand the car pushing through the brakes. But otherwise, I am not sure.

I don't know what to make of this post.

Dazza
 
I know these things happen quickly...but "turning ignition off" was the only way to stop? What about shifting to neutral (auto) or depressing clutch (manual)? What way to know is there that the car was in "full open throttle position"? Did rev limiters kick in? :confused
 
I feel these incidents did happen the way they were described by the driver. In the first incident, I can't imagine the car being fully stopped with her foot on the brake pedal then accidently hitting the gas pedal to achieve "full throttle" without moving her foot to the side. My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with the car itself, the C5 has 11 different computers which talk to one another through a network. Like any computer network, it can be subject to stray signals in the area. I have one very important question...did both of these accidents happen at the same location, ie...her home, business or similar location. She said she was at the card reader to the gate of her parking garage during her first accident, and parking her car on her property during the second accident, are these in the same general location? Reading her post I am making a big assumption, that she lives in Italy or somewhere in the Mediterranean, that being said, there could be radio signals in that particular area that aren't here in the US, like maybe a wireless network, someone using a cordless phone, or perhaps the electronic gate itself creating electrical signals, so others here in the US might not have similar problems. Another important question I would ask, are there other C5 corvettes in that area, and have they had similar problems with electronic irregularities, not just with the sudden acceleration issue? It's just a thought.

As far as the mechanic, GM, or Chevrolet being responsible for all of this is very premature. The two accidents were 1 year apart, their liability is limited. If you take a car in and have the brakes replaced because they didn't stop the car and you had an accident, then one year later the same thing happened, would you be able to say that the mechanic is responsible for not properly repairing your brakes? Hardly. You were able to drive the car for one year without the problem reproducing itself and if that problem is not reproducible, not many technicians out there can diagnose and fix something that is working correctly. I would imagine that if something were wrong with the manufacturing of the Corvette, the problem would have showed up shortly after the car was purchased in 1998...since it didn't happen until 2002 and then again in 2003, I would lean more towards a problem with the computer system and specifically the communications. It was suggested that the cruise control may have had a part in these accidents but cruise control is usually disabled when the vehicle is under 30-35mph and/or the brake pedal is applied, so I would not start my diagnosis with that system, it sounds more like an engine control system was effected.

Just my two cents worth...
 
The networked computer systems in a car have nothing in common with an office / home computer network, and it require technology we dont have for a stray signal to cause the throttle to go wide open because of the computer.

Even if it did there is still the fact that no car can overpower the braking system.

Try stepping on the gas and brake in any car and see what happens.
 
As far as operator error goes, it can easily happen. I have a daily driver Volvo S60AWD (2002). The brake and accelerator pedals are closer together on the S60 than they were on earlier models of Volvos that I have owned. If I am wearing a pair of boots that have a wider sole and am not careful, I will end up pressing both brake and accelerator pedals at the same time. The way that I know I am pressing both pedals is that the engine revs increase and the car wants to go instead of stop. The solution is real simple - pull my foot back and place it more carefully on the brake pedal and voila, all is well again.

I really want to emphasize the requirement for a proper evaluation of the on-board systems with a Tech2. There could be an intermittent failure of the PCM or other system that could be identified by the Tech2. Without doing a scan for codes, you are basically in the dark. If the original garage/service facility was not factory-qualified, there is no way that you have even the beginning of a complaint against GM. (Maybe against the service facility for incompetence; but not yet against GM.) The car is not "crazy"; it has been serviced by what appears to be a garage/service facility that is not qualified to service the car. TAKE THE CAR TO A FACTORY-QUALIFIED SERVICE FACILITY!!!! If they can not explain the functioning of a Tech2 diagnostic computer (including showing where the diagnostic port is located on the car - better yet, have them hook up the computer and run through the scan while you are watching...), they are still not competent to diagnose or service the car. It really is that simple.
 
Heidi, how about the following scenario for the one foot two pedal theory:

1. Stopped at the parking garage, foot on the brake lightly, engine idling, transmission in Drive;

2. Reach to the left (right arm through the driver's side window) to activate the control to raise the bar to gain entry to the garage;

3. Right foot slips on the brake pedal and presses the accelerator pedal;

4. Sudden acceleration, further attempts at pressing the brake pedal results in even more acceleration (remember, both pedals are being pressed now) and the car must be stopped by turning off the ignition.

N'est pas?
 
Hmmm...could be...

My problem with the two pedals depressed after one has already been fully depressed, is that the fully depressed one would be much lower than the other, which is up. I would more expect the side of the foot on the brake to contact the side of the gas pedal, not the top to depress it.

Not saying it couldn't happen, just that I find it improbable.
Heidi

ps...my cruise control problem with my Olds would occur usually at city/town speeds and was most often initiated after making a 45* turn and using the turn signal (and accidentally hitting the on switch for the cc). The problem with my Olds was a glitch which is why it would not disengage with the brake. Braking would only put the cc on 'hold' and after the foot was off the brake it would accelerate to the cruise speed. The lever needed to be pushed to the off position to stop the acceleration.
Goofy car. Probably an electrical problem.
 
Then again, we don't KNOW that the brake pedal was really fully depressed (if it was fully depressed, there would be problems with the master cylinder...), do we? It doesn't take too much pressure on the brake pedal to keep the car stopped at idle.
 
cavettefan said:
I really want to emphasize the requirement for a proper evaluation of the on-board systems with a Tech2. There could be an intermittent failure of the PCM or other system that could be identified by the Tech2. Without doing a scan for codes, you are basically in the dark. If the original garage/service facility was not factory-qualified, there is no way that you have even the beginning of a complaint against GM. (Maybe against the service facility for incompetence; but not yet against GM.) The car is not "crazy"; it has been serviced by what appears to be a garage/service facility that is not qualified to service the car. TAKE THE CAR TO A FACTORY-QUALIFIED SERVICE FACILITY!!!! If they can not explain the functioning of a Tech2 diagnostic computer (including showing where the diagnostic port is located on the car - better yet, have them hook up the computer and run through the scan while you are watching...), they are still not competent to diagnose or service the car. It really is that simple.
I think this is the best way to go if you really want to know what happened!
 
Fan,

you hit the nail right square - INCOMPETENCE!
 

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