When would you need the use of a high performance starter?

[1989 406]

Does anyone on here use one and what is their set up?

 

[John Robinson]

I looked this up for a 1989 C4

Buy Powermaster Mastertorque Starter - Infi-Clock™ Chevy 168/153-Tooth PM9600 at Advance Auto Parts

Note the compression ratio this is suited for.

 

[vetteoz]

The original 100K stock Denso starter from my '89 is spinning my 12:1 383 over fine.
When the tune is right it will fire straight up as soon as the key is turned ; you can hardly hear the engine crank over

I have the above mentioned PowerMaster starter on the shelf to use when I swap to a 168 flexplate

 

[1989 406]

As I look back I did not have this issue of not starting in the colder months when I bought it so it must be heat related and I would guess I do not need one.

 

[Sunstroked]

Regarding the starting issue. If you have not fixed the problem yet, and it seems to be heat related you may want to read on.My 92 has given me grief with the no start problem off and on over the past 5 yrs. I replaced the battery, it was still under warranty from previous owner. All was fine for awhile. And that may have been that problem. Always cranks in cool weather. Again the no crank started again. I replaced the starter with a power master. Worked fine, for awhile. Thinking heat related problem, I put a blanket on it. Worked for awhile. Approximately 17 months go by. Battery dies. Our summer heat destroys batteries so I confirm dead cells and buy another battery. Starts great in cooler weather, but when it gets hot, it's hit or miss. I check voltage drop when cranking and a slew of other tests from the factory service manual to find the issue, everything checks ok. But the car is always cool when testing. Finally, it happened when the car had been moved out of the garage and left in the sun for a few hrs. That did it. This problem has my full attention. I hate to shotgun parts, but the first thing I did was to replace the pos battery cable. I then replaced 3 of the fusible links involved in the starting circuit. I cleaned the neg grounds, and for good measure I jumpered the clutch no start switch for troubleshooting. It's been a week now and the temps in phx are hitting 100 most days now. So far it has cranked every time. My next step is to reconnect the clutch sw. If my problem comes back. I'll change that too. I truly think a fusible link may have been heating up and giving high resistance, enough to cause a no crank. I mean nothing, no click at the solenoid at all. If this sounds like your problem, you may want to study the cranking circuit, or start throwing new wires at it, all told I paid about $65 for the wires.

 

[1989 406]

Regarding the starting issue. If you have not fixed the problem yet, and it seems to be heat related you may want to read on.My 92 has given me grief with the no start problem off and on over the past 5 yrs. I replaced the battery, it was still under warranty from previous owner. All was fine for awhile. And that may have been that problem. Always cranks in cool weather. Again the no crank started again. I replaced the starter with a power master. Worked fine, for awhile. Thinking heat related problem, I put a blanket on it. Worked for awhile. Approximately 17 months go by. Battery dies. Our summer heat destroys batteries so I confirm dead cells and buy another battery. Starts great in cooler weather, but when it gets hot, it's hit or miss. I check voltage drop when cranking and a slew of other tests from the factory service manual to find the issue, everything checks ok. But the car is always cool when testing. Finally, it happened when the car had been moved out of the garage and left in the sun for a few hrs. That did it. This problem has my full attention. I hate to shotgun parts, but the first thing I did was to replace the pos battery cable. I then replaced 3 of the fusible links involved in the starting circuit. I cleaned the neg grounds, and for good measure I jumpered the clutch no start switch for troubleshooting. It's been a week now and the temps in phx are hitting 100 most days now. So far it has cranked every time. My next step is to reconnect the clutch sw. If my problem comes back. I'll change that too. I truly think a fusible link may have been heating up and giving high resistance, enough to cause a no crank. I mean nothing, no click at the solenoid at all. If this sounds like your problem, you may want to study the cranking circuit, or start throwing new wires at it, all told I paid about $65 for the wires.

Sun, thanks a lot for the detailed response. Just when I think I have it somewhat heat related, I go out today and now the starter turns and the motor does not crank. I have recently put a new alternator, starter and battery. The car sits in my garage so heat was not a factor. Not too long ago I had a guy replace the clutch switch or so he says. I have to keep on going. The car also has a Viper alarm on it and I am not thinking that may play a part in it.

 

[joe paco]

I read all your posts and just now hear something different. You said "starter spins but will not crank."
all along, I assumed it was cranking -spinning the flywheel and turning the crankshaft- but not at a speed fast enough to fire.
these comments are two different things.

the question is, does the engine spin -with the solenoid moving the starter clutch gear into and engaged to the flyheel? Or, does the gear engage the flywheel teeth, then kick itself out, for some reason? the starter gear should remain engaged to the flywheel as long as the battery voltage is sufficient to activate the solenoid, or until the engine RPM over-runs the starter gear, and you release the key. if you relese the key from start position, the spring inside the solenoid pushes the gear away from the flywheel teeth, and the solenoid cuts the voltage to the starter..

if the starter gear is defective, slipping, the starter will spin but will not be engaged with the flywheel. you will aso hear the sound of the starter motor spinning free.

I think that, if the starter is trying to start at all, the clutch switch is not involved, nor an alarm system, VATS, whatever.

Have not worked on starter/solenoid issues for many years, but they still work the same.

saludos, joe

 

[boomdriver]

Regarding the starting issue. If you have not fixed the problem yet, and it seems to be heat related you may want to read on.My 92 has given me grief with the no start problem off and on over the past 5 yrs. I replaced the battery, it was still under warranty from previous owner. All was fine for awhile. And that may have been that problem. Always cranks in cool weather. Again the no crank started again. I replaced the starter with a power master. Worked fine, for awhile. Thinking heat related problem, I put a blanket on it. Worked for awhile. Approximately 17 months go by. Battery dies. Our summer heat destroys batteries so I confirm dead cells and buy another battery. Starts great in cooler weather, but when it gets hot, it's hit or miss. I check voltage drop when cranking and a slew of other tests from the factory service manual to find the issue, everything checks ok. But the car is always cool when testing. Finally, it happened when the car had been moved out of the garage and left in the sun for a few hrs. That did it. This problem has my full attention. I hate to shotgun parts, but the first thing I did was to replace the pos battery cable. I then replaced 3 of the fusible links involved in the starting circuit. I cleaned the neg grounds, and for good measure I jumpered the clutch no start switch for troubleshooting. It's been a week now and the temps in phx are hitting 100 most days now. So far it has cranked every time. My next step is to reconnect the clutch sw. If my problem comes back. I'll change that too. I truly think a fusible link may have been heating up and giving high resistance, enough to cause a no crank. I mean nothing, no click at the solenoid at all. If this sounds like your problem, you may want to study the cranking circuit, or start throwing new wires at it, all told I paid about $65 for the wires.

WOW

if nothing happens when you turn the key, no starter, no click...nada...
There are LOTS of things in these cars that cause that....the starter NOT even making the list. Ever heard of VATS? starter enable solenoid? Ignition master switch?
Fusable links are black & white. They are good or not. No inbetween.

 

[boomdriver]

I read all your posts and just now hear something different. You said "starter spins but will not crank."
all along, I assumed it was cranking -spinning the flywheel and turning the crankshaft- but not at a speed fast enough to fire.
these comments are two different things.

the question is, does the engine spin -with the solenoid moving the starter clutch gear into and engaged to the flyheel? Or, does the gear engage the flywheel teeth, then kick itself out, for some reason? the starter gear should remain engaged to the flywheel as long as the battery voltage is sufficient to activate the solenoid, or until the engine RPM over-runs the starter gear, and you release the key. if you relese the key from start position, the spring inside the solenoid pushes the gear away from the flywheel teeth, and the solenoid cuts the voltage to the starter..

if the starter gear is defective, slipping, the starter will spin but will not be engaged with the flywheel. you will aso hear the sound of the starter motor spinning free.

I think that, if the starter is trying to start at all, the clutch switch is not involved, nor an alarm system, VATS, whatever.

Have not worked on starter/solenoid issues for many years, but they still work the same.

saludos, joe

There is a definate lack of consistancy in the complaint...


what is it?

starter motor turns but engine does NOT? :confused

key turns but starter motor does nothing? :confused

key turns, starter motor turns, motor turns over ( CRANKS) but does not FIRE? (run on its own) ...? :confused

Accurate descriptions mean EVERYTHING when trying to get a diagnosis from a thousand miles away...
:soapbox
Cranking: engine rotating but not firing or trying to start and run.

Starting: the act of turning the key which should make the starter run turning the engine over until it fires.

Cranking on it: holding the key ON forcing the starter to continue to spin the engine even though the engine will not fire and run

Fire: engine igniting fuel and running on its own

 

[1989 406]

There is a definate lack of consistancy in the complaint...


what is it?

starter motor turns but engine does NOT? :confused

key turns but starter motor does nothing? :confused

key turns, starter motor turns, motor turns over ( CRANKS) but does not FIRE? (run on its own) ...? :confused

Accurate descriptions mean EVERYTHING when trying to get a diagnosis from a thousand miles away...
:soapbox
Cranking: engine rotating but not firing or trying to start and run.

Starting: the act of turning the key which should make the starter run turning the engine over until it fires.

Cranking on it: holding the key ON forcing the starter to continue to spin the engine even though the engine will not fire and run

Fire: engine igniting fuel and running on its own

Up until yesterday the only problem was that it was cranking for a very little bit and and was not starting. Not until last night did I experience for the first time something different which was the starter motor spinning fine, but now the engine will not crank.

The one problem all along has just become two since last night.

 

[joe paco]

Up until yesterday the only problem was that it was cranking for a very little bit and and was not starting. Not until last night did I experience for the first time something different which was the starter motor spinning fine, but now the engine will not crank.

The one problem all along has just become two since last night.

1989, the solenoid completes circuit from key to starter, also pulls in the starter overruning clutch, or Bendix gear. so that part, solenoid, is functioning.

the key here for me is that I still don't understand what "cranking a very little bit" means. from your comment, it suggests that the Bendix or flywheel ring is damaged.

from boomer's list, it should crank as long as you hold the key to start position, or until the battery gives up. or until the circuit was interrupted, by whatever possibiity. I recently had a bad battery cell. the symptoms were, the engine cranked for a couple seconds, hesitated, a couple more slow cranks, solenoid clicked out, I released the key. classic low current flow. the starter was never heard spinning free.

so, the question is: what exactly happens? is the starter gear grinding with the flywheel teeth and slipping, in which case you hear the starter motor whirring, or the solenoid clicks out, releasing the gear? if the flywheel ring gear is damaged, misaligned, whatever, or Bendix is defective, the cranking will stop, otherwise, if you have current, it should not. I doubt that the computer is part of the problem, but I am old school. Don't understand the ECM yet.

I was assuming a lot of things that were not mentioned, such as, was the complete starter/solenoid asm installed? are the symptoms that necessitated the starter replacement the same, or different?

again, communication is usually part of the problem. we're only human.

saludos, joe

 

[John Robinson]

You may have inherited a second problem. Both problems may not be connected. For starters as mentioned the flywheel could be bad, misaligned, Or a bolt holding it in place may have backed out and now is jammed up against a casting web preventing the engine from turning over. So the questions about what specifically is happening now are critical to isolating what can cause your problems.

We appreciate the opportunity to assist you with this issue because we are sure that at some future date you will have the answer for someone Else's problem.

So hang in there I believe you are close to finding and correcting your problems

 

[1989 406]

You may have inherited a second problem. Both problems may not be connected. For starters as mentioned the flywheel could be bad, misaligned, Or a bolt holding it in place may have backed out and now is jammed up against a casting web preventing the engine from turning over. So the questions about what specifically is happening now are critical to isolating what can cause your problems.

We appreciate the opportunity to assist you with this issue because we are sure that at some future date you will have the answer for someone Else's problem.

So hang in there I believe you are close to finding and correcting your problems

I appreciate everyone's input. I know it is very difficult to diag without the exact facts. The potential here now is a second problem. I am probably going to have to get a friend who is a great tech to look at it. I will keep you all updated because it is going too far over my head for what I can do.

 

[joe paco]

I appreciate everyone's input. I know it is very difficult to diag without the exact facts. The potential here now is a second problem. I am probably going to have to get a friend who is a great tech to look at it. I will keep you all updated because it is going too far over my head for what I can do.

Understood. frustrating, ain't it?

read your own post 5-02-11, paraphrasing, "starter engages briefly but not enough to start."
sounds like the same problem you have now, to me. a starter gear engagement issue, rather than motor-wiring-capacity-battery issue. as I mentioned, if the solenoid was "dropping out" of the circuit, the starter motor would be, also. so you'd never hear the motor spinning.
have your friend look at Bendix and starter ring.

saludos, and happy hunting,
joe