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Z06/LS6 Motor available in Camaros!

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Stan A

Guest
Compromise……………… It was not to long ago that GM and Bowling Green personnel said that the LS6 engine package would only be a available in the Z06 model. When people were asking the question why they do not make it available in the convertible or coupe, all we heard was that they did not want to compromise the Z06 format. Well, GM has gone back on their word…………….. again!!!!!!!!!!

Currently, through a program with a company called GMMG Inc, the 2002 Camaro is being offered with the LS6 motor and special transmission on a very limited basic. I understand that this is being done because of the discontinuing of the Camaro after this year. The cost is around $57,000 and I was told that many units will go out the door at over $65,000.

This offering was being done through Chevrolet dealers around the country. Currently, I understand that Superior Chevrolet in Kansas still has a few options open on this ZL1/LS6 Camaro. Their email is www.chevyusa.com.

After all the talk on keeping the Z06 a pure product, GM goes back on their word and does something like this. This is not the first time and won’t be the last time!
 
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Ling_650vette

Guest
they do it again, nothing new. Would be funny though, if they gave the Camaro the 385hp version's just so the 02 ZO6 can have 405.
 

danl72

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Wow, and they said they would not put that car into production, ya right. Why would you pay $57,000 or $65,000 for a Camaro with the LS6 instead of paying $55,000 for a Z06 Corvette. What car would you really want if you hd the choice. I would pick the Z06. I know the Camaro might be a collectors item, but it is still not a Vette.
 
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vettepilot

Guest
I hope people aren't paying $55,000.00 for a 2002 ZO6, if they are it's about 5000-8000 overpriced. A good ZO6 deal out the door should be $47 - 50K. But of course there are those who don't need a good deal, they just plunk down the $$$$$$$
vettepilot
 

Edmond

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2003 Z06
I think Chevy should've done something different for the last Camaro's. Kind of like them putting the LT4's in the 96's.

danl72,

That's a good point, why would anyone pay $15,000 more for a car with the same engine?

I think too many people think cars are collectible. Don't get me wrong, there are a few cars out there that will definitely hold their value and quite possibly increase in value. But cars are just not sound investments.
 
S

Stan A

Guest
Reasonable Pricing

I understand that several dealers are discounting between $5,500 to $6,500 off a new Z06. With the price increase last December, 2001 of $1,500, I honestly believe that a fair discount is closer to $6,500 for the buyer. Come September this figure will be greater! Expect dealers this summer to just about give a way any Z06s they have left. The dealers will not loose anything and the 2003 Z06s will also be up in price ( I hear around $750 to $1,000).

As to the retail price on a Z06, I thought with all options it hit around 52k or so. Personally, 45k seems fair as the car is almost a year old. A 2001 Z06 with 8k mileage was just sold here in Atlanta for $34,000. Maxie Price sold two similar cars last February for $35,000 and $36,000.

Pricing should settle in by summer of 2003 as the C6 will not offer a Z0? model. This is the same pattern of sales-marketing they found successful with the C5 program.

The ZL1/LS6 Camaro is strictly a collectors car. Glad I am not a collector!
 

Edmond

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2003 Z06
Buddy of mine who works for a Chevrolet dealer told me that they sold a 01' Z06 for $45,000 with 1,000 miles on it. He said that the guy put a stripe down the middle of it and did some other 'weird' things and then traded the car back in. They took the stripe off and sold it in like a week.

01' Z06's are almost a steal. Like you said Stan, I'm sure that dealers will have some 02' inventory left over at the end of the year and they'll discount them to push them out the door. They didn't announce any significant improvements on the 03' Z06 did they? Didn't Consumer Reports say that dealers pay about $42,000 or so???
 
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vettepilot

Guest
BullWinkle,
You're correct that there is not much, if any, differance from the 02 to the 03 ZO6. Maybe a color choice if the new Black paint is available. To date there seems to be no HP increase, much to the displeasure of many who were anticipating another good shot in the arm for the ZO6 and/or the entire Corvette lineup. Quite frankly, 405 HP / 400 lbs Tq is, as my ZO6 poster says, "An entirely new level of overkill". But it's not just the engine that makes the car special, it's the total package.
But I think I've gotten a bit off the original subject here, so...
back to our original program.
I for one think it's a good idea to spread the wealth so to speak, with the LS6. It will not be wide spread so let the engine speak for itself in another platform. Remember the days of the big blocks being put in everything from Corvettes, Camaros, Chevelles, to Novas. Chevrolet put the 427 in everything EXCEPT the Nova, but you could get a Yenko, or Baldwin 427 Nova. Those cars certainly didn't hurt the other's and were really a fast car because of the low weight in comparison to the rest of the Chevrolet field.
Of course the LS6 in a Camaro, (if it is truly an LS6 not just the LS1 block with bolt on heads and intake) will probably be forced to accept a very slight HP/TQ reduction both from the installation restraints of induction and exhaust system, and maybe internal politics of the Corporation. I guess we shall see.
vettepilot
 

Edmond

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Corvette
2003 Z06
speaking of the 427

Are they ever going to put one of those back into a Corvette?

The $1,500 increase in price from 01' to 02' was perfectly justified I think because they put so much more into the car. But I think getting people to pay more for essentially the same car will be a tad difficult. Look at the C5's from 00' to 02', no major changes. I don't think Chevy really puts changes into the Corvette unless they feel threatened by another car. They should strive to keep raising the bar instead of waiting and then raise the bar.
 
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vettepilot

Guest
There's been a lot of talk about the 6.0 liter (427) engine going into the Vette, but I haven't seen anything concrete yet. Remember this is not the 427 of old days, Even with the HP war ongoing, I really don't think we will ever see another "big block" in the Corvette, it is just too big and heavy. Even an all aluminum block like the ZL1 is way too large for the current engine bay if it is to be driven on the street, and retain all the amenities for comfort, like A/C for example. The most likely scenario is a bored and stroked 5.7 liter to increase the displacement, or a new block casting with the larger bore and stroked crank. The early LS1 blocks didn't leave much if any room for boring, just light honing , but the LS6 cylinder liners are supposed to have more available leeway for increasing cylinder size, but I'm not really sure about that.
At any rate, the price increases are incremental not just from MY to MY but throughout the MY year. For example, the base price of the ZO6 has increased twice since I purchased mine, not certain why. It could be simple supply and demand. Or it could be a new MY marketing ploy, if the price for the 2003 is raised another $1000.00 over the current 2002 price it looks like a simple $1000.00 increase, but if you compare it to the first price of the 2002 MY, that same $1000.00 increase becomes about $1500.00 over the early 2002 price. Pretty slick huh? Most people looking to purchase a new model year car probably won't know what "last year's price" was, because they weren't looking at the car last year. The marketing people know this, and that's the way our system works. That's why it pays to research the vehicle you want long before you are serious about buying, you go into the wheeling and dealing with historical pricing knowledge and armed with that info, you can decide if you are getting the deal you want or not.
In respect to increasing the HP, I don't think the Corvette team is sitting on their hands waiting for another manufacturer to raise the HP bar. Remember, it takes a huge engineering and testing program to come out with a new engine, get it certified then re-tool for production. The cost of offering an engine lineup like we had in the 60s and early 70s cannot be justified for the price of the car. Look at those European companies who offer optional engines, transmissions, and interiors... Porche comes to mind here... the price is astronomical. The target market for the Corvette probably would not stand for the substantial price increase that would be necessary to make such an offering. True there are some out there who have the resources to pay, but they are more the exception than the rule. Those are the one's who have a Corvette for their everyday toy, that way they can leave the Ferrari or Lambo in the 8 car garage on rainy days.
Well, I guess I'm finished with this chapter of War and Peace.
vettepilot
 
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Ling_650vette

Guest
If they would/could build an alum 6.0 block then just do something to that, or hell just leave it stock, that would work. Considering if they dont want to go to say a Gen IV block, it already is a Gen III block, so of course it would be a good substitute. I've heard of some Fbody people using that block, and being bored and stroked to make some nicely built small blocks. Only other option, i would think, would be to get Katech in, and have them offer say a 7.0L for the car...but, that imo would be pretty pricey. Just have to wait and see what goes on i guess. Rumors are rumors, but sometimes, it doesn't hurt to believe 'em a lil bit....untill they dont produce them *cough* Silverado SS *cough* (sorry, i just dont like the fact that Ford has the Lightning, and Chevy hasn't gotten anything, being a sport truck fan :( , but i guess thats another post for another time lol)
 
S

Stan A

Guest
The cat is out of the bag!

There is a new GEN III motor that is only available to GM development and race groups. It is a 427 All-Aluminum "Bow tie" setup. Early tests show that this motor can handle up to 1000hp with no trouble. However, the chances of this engine reaching the streets is somewhat small. You would have to know someone to get it. This may well change later on in the year (and based on availability).

Spoke with a GM development group about costs. Looking at $20,000 for a street setup producing 550hp/550lbs torque (that would pass emissions)on 91-93 octane. From there the prices really goes up. They claim it is very well mannered and easy to drive in traffic with a manual tranny.

Personally, I believe that we have seen the last of the so called "big block" when it comes to street cars/trucks made by GM. With all the new CAFE and mileage requirements that the big three US manufacturers will have to meet in the next five years, larger motors are not the way to go. We are already seeing some models made by two of the three US manufacturers using small displacement engines with supercharging.Expect more to come real soon.

Also you can expect cars with high volume sales like the Corvette to move toward reducing their engine sizes too. I know that all of us hate to hear this but with sales topping out over 20,000 units every year, the Corvette does effect the over all CAFE average for Chevy division. What can we expect in the future. One of the first things we are hearing is that the C6 Vette will be powered by a GEN III with multi-cam setup (four values per cylinder- No overhead cams!)Motor size between 5.2L to 5.4L with the power band push out to 6200rpm to 6500rpms. Estimates on horsepower are between 325 to 340. Also expect the cars weight to be reduced by as much as 150lbs. Performance would equal what we are already seeing and maybe a little better too.

Cars like the Vipers (1300 units), NSXs (1000 units), Lamborghinis (under 500 units), and certain Ferraris and Porsche models will not effect by the new upcoming CAFE and emission requirements because their distribution in the US is under 2000 cars per year.

I would expect performance to start costing even more than it does now down the road.

I would like to think that all of this is nothing more than a "bad dream" but I am afraid it is just a reality we will all have to face. Time will tell.

Lets enjoy what we have while we still have it!!!
 
B

BBB454

Guest
Stan A said:
Currently, through a program with a company called GMMG Inc, the 2002 Camaro is being offered with the LS6 motor and special transmission on a very limited basic. I understand that this is being done because of the discontinuing of the Camaro after this year. The cost is around $57,000 and I was told that many units will go out the door at over $65,000.

Collector's Edition? I'll take bets on which car is worth more in 10 to 20 years:

A) The 2002 Z06 Corvette
B) The 2002 LS6 Camaro

My choice is A.

Guess you know what I would buy if I had extra $$ laying around...

Barb :w
 

Edmond

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2003 Z06
pilot,

Well said!:D

Like Stan said, I also believe that they'll just supercharge cars instead of putting bigger motors in them. Look at that Ford GT40(?) Isn't that going to be a supercharged small block? The muscle car days of big block motors is truly gone with the environmental friendly industry that the automotive world has turned into.

I read that GM raised the C5 performance bar when Ford started to really put some effort into their Cobra R that would finally sweep the Camaro aside and play with the big boys. The result was the Z06.

Now, GM already put an automatic tranny in a Camaro SS; I wouldn't be very surprised if they actually put a auto tranny in the Z06 some day. Then again, they never offered the ZR1 with an automatic option.

This is kind of off the subject but if the Z06 has 405 HP, shouldn't it have a higher terminal speed of 168?
 
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vettepilot

Guest
The ZO6 has a slightly lower top speed due somewhat from aerodynamics. The ZO6 has a CD of .31, whereas the Coupe is .2* something, I don't have the exact number at hand right now. Remember neither car will reach redline in 6th or in the case of the auto, OD. The difference in the Cd is caused from several differances in the body, one of which I read about someplace about is the front end. The ZO6 has engine intake air inlet screens, the coupe and vert do not, they have an "air deflector", that's the plastic filler panal in front of the fog lights. That air deflector, (from what I have read elsewhere) changes the aerodynamics of the front end, therefore the lower CD for the coupe and verts. The differance although minimal gives the coupe the higher top speed, that being about 175 MPH, VS the ZO6's 173 MPH. Both being achieved in 5th gear at their respective redline. Now for those who are thinking, HEY the ZO6 has a higher redline, then it should top out higher... but it also has lower transmission gearing (they both have a 3.42:1 final drive) so even though it is approx. 500 rpm higher, the shorter gearing in the ZO6 uses that rpm to achieve approx the same speed. I understand from those who have tried it, the ZO6 drops to about 160 +- in 6th, I haven't heard about the Coupe. All in all, at the top end everything is so close that all it takes is a head wind vs a tailwind or slight lift of the throttle and the balance of power could transfer back and forth all day. But I think that the Coupe is the generally accepted "King of the Hill" for the C5 top speed billing. But it had better get there first, otherwise it will be looking at ZO6 tail lights for a while until it catches up... :L :L :L
vettepilot
 

Edmond

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2003 Z06
Pilot,

Are you talking about that coefficient of drag thing?

With what you just said, I'm assuming that you haven't made a run at that top speed thing eh?:L
 
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vettepilot

Guest
Hi Bullwinkle,
Yes on the CD thing... and no I haven't been over about 115 with mine, in my area there's no really good (read safe) road to get up to those high speeds. That 115 was just last weekend. Our Vette Club was returning from Japer Fl on I-10, I got caught behind traffic as we entered the Hwy. So to catch up quickly I just brought it up to 115 in 4th for a short acceleration sprint. Then dropped into 6th to cruise up to the rest of the pack.
Running between 85 - 90 in 6th gear I was showing approx. 1850 on the tach and showing 22.5 MPG average on the DIC.
vettepilot
 
Joined
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71 Conv. (Sold) / 98 Pewter Coupe (Sold)
GMMG is building several limited run cars at varying levels of performance. My favorite is the Black Bird.

Here's their website.
 

twiget

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The Land of Enchantment
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In the market
GM did the same thing with the '96 LT4's as far as putting a limited number in the F-body's. I dont remember the exact numbers, but there where only a handfull of LT4 F-body's produced.

Jason
 

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