New intake for crossfire = more HP!!!!

[toobroketoretire]

You need to remember, to some people several is anything more than one. By that definition 2 a week could be called several.

Glenn

DCS told me they're getting 5-10 cast per week. It all depends on how many the foundry feels like doing for DCS. Being such a small time operation, DCS isn't a big priority of the foundry.

 

[toobroketoretire]

DCS told me they're getting 5-10 cast per week. It all depends on how many the foundry feels like doing for DCS. Being such a small time operation, DCS isn't a big priority of the foundry.

I have always considered two to be a couple and several was three or more.

 

[roger longman]

There are a few :L people that may disagree with you.

 

[nelson84]

Ya that is correct.

couple is 2

several is 3 or more

 

[nelson84]

I raced SCCA solo 1 and solo 2, also hillclimbs. I ran stock classes and won far more than my share including the state series championship. At the time, there was no reason to mod it, cuz nothing was faster, and I didn't need an edge.

Impressive, where could a guy find info on crossfires racing?

 

[catbert]

Impressive, where could a guy find info on crossfires racing?

Sadly, the days of the crossfire is over in organized racing. At the time, the Vette was SCCA superstock or b-stock. The problem is that it wouldn't be competitive against today's iron. It would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. You COULD run a modified crossfire in the modified classes, and depending on how far the overall prep was taken. you might do well. Look up SCCA solo rules for details.

 

[Hib Halverson]

So what is your point? I'm saying we California owners have only 3 choices. Run a stock Crossfire, run a ported Crossfire, or run a Renegade. As the Renegade will easily outflow a Crossfire or ported Crossfire, I'll go with the Renegade.

Actually, if you really knew as much about California exhaust emissions law as you claim to know, you'd understand that legally, you can't even install a Renegade unless it has a CARB executive order (EO) number.

That said, in practice, some Smog Check stations are not going to catch that the intake manifold is aftermarket but, if you happen to wander into a station that has a knowledgable technician and he or she doesn't see the EO sticker or, for some reason, you get booted up to a State Referee station and they don't see the EO; you'll get nailed for the Renegade and, if it's a Referee station which catches you, you may also get cited for tampering.

In addition, if your car is registered in a part of California where the "Enhanced Smog Check" (the I/M 240 style test) is required, you may flunk anyway because that test is run at part-throttle at 15 and 25 mph wheel speeds which will be precisely where this Renegade may affect air fuel ratio badly. You're only going to find about whether or not that will be true until you bolt it on, get the calibration done right and go for a test. If you are registered where the Enhanced Test is not required then all you need to do is make sure the engine idles cleanly.

Now...on this second part, I need to do a little more research, but I'm pretty sure that updating an 82/84 to 85-up TPI is legal, but the law forces you to have the emissions controls which came on an 85 because the Smog Check goes by the model year of the engine not the model year of the car. The induction, the engine controls and the emissions control devices would all have to go to the 85-configuration. Again, I need to do some more checking, but I recall this to be how the CARB works in situations like that.

As for the Renegade "out flowing" or "out performing" the OE L83 intake manifold, if you freakin' read my earlier posts, you'd know that I agree that the Renegade may outflow and will make higher maximum power than the stock intake manifold. My "lipstick on a pig" statement refers to all the other characteristics a street-driven induction system must have to be driveable by normal people and...the compromises to those characteristics an intake manifold which is modified for much larger port volumes will present when the core architecture remains a dual-throttle-body, low-rise, cross ram design.

 

[toobroketoretire]

The Renegade Intake Manifold

So what are you suggesting I do Hib? Ask DCS to give my money back and just run my Crossfire? I live in a remote area 30 miles east of Fresno so my '82 doesn't have to go on the rollers for the smog test. The sniffer is stuck up my right side tail pipe and I run my engine (in neutral) at two different rpm's. If I lived 15 miles west of where I live, then my '82 would have to go on the rollers.

 

[Hib Halverson]

In your area, you only need to test at idle so, as long as, once you get the Renegade on there, the engine idles clean at both the rpms, you have all the other emissions control devices present and you don't run up against a sharp-eyed tech. with a hard-on for non-EO aftermarket parts, you'll be ok.

The really good thing to do is have a pre-test to make sure you can pass without having data go to Sacramento. The reason for that is that if you go straight for a test and if, by chance, with the new intake, there is something way out of whack with idle mixture, you'll be a "gross polluter". That is the kiss of death because 1) it will attract attention to the non EO intake manifold and 2) once you fix a gross polluter, which you are forced to do before you can register the car, even after it passes, you are "marked" as a gross polluter :nono in the State's database for several years. In an Enhanced Area that puts you in Test Only stations for a period of time. I'm not sure what happens in the non-enhanced test areas.

If you do get a sharp-eyed tech who spots the non-EO'ed intake and decides to nail you on it, you're screwed because the only way you'll get through after that is with the stock unit and you may even get bumped to a referee station if the inspector thinks tampering took place and is a jerk about it.

So much of this situation is going to be how the aftermarket parts look. I think if the parts of the Renegade which can be seen with your air filter assembly in place looks a lot like stock you and the car tests clean, you will be ok.

But again...just so I don't get a bunch of hate mail from you "crossfire nazis"...given the right increase in port volume, the Renegade will certainly increase performance near peak power and it will move the power peak up. My guess is it may also move the torque peak closer to the power peak. As to how much it will improve performance? I've never seen the product so I have no idea how much bigger the manifold ports and plenum are. But, considering what a new intake (which will obviously be very limited production) will cost, it better be worth 40 or more extra horsepower.

P.S. Lastly...why don't you guys just bolt on some nitrous oxide and be done with it?

P.P.S. Ok..ok...I was just kidding on the nitrous thing.

 

[toobroketoretire]

In your area, you only need to test at idle so, as long as, once you get the Renegade on there, the engine idles clean at both the rpms, you have all the other emissions control devices present and you don't run up against a sharp-eyed tech. with a hard-on for non-EO aftermarket parts, you'll be ok.

The really good thing to do is have a pre-test to make sure you can pass without having data go to Sacramento. The reason for that is that if you go straight for a test and if, by chance, with the new intake, there is something way out of whack with idle mixture, you'll be a "gross polluter". That is the kiss of death because 1) it will attract attention to the non EO intake manifold and 2) once you fix a gross polluter, which you are forced to do before you can register the car, even after it passes, you are "marked" as a gross polluter :nono in the State's database for several years. In an Enhanced Area that puts you in Test Only stations for a period of time. I'm not sure what happens in the non-enhanced test areas.

If you do get a sharp-eyed tech who spots the non-EO'ed intake and decides to nail you on it, you're screwed because the only way you'll get through after that is with the stock unit and you may even get bumped to a referee station if the inspector thinks tampering took place and is a jerk about it.

So much of this situation is going to be how the aftermarket parts look. I think if the parts of the Renegade which can be seen with your air filter assembly in place looks a lot like stock you and the car tests clean, you will be ok.

But again...just so I don't get a bunch of hate mail from you "crossfire nazis"...given the right increase in port volume, the Renegade will certainly increase performance near peak power and it will move the power peak up. My guess is it may also move the torque peak closer to the power peak. As to how much it will improve performance? I've never seen the product so I have no idea how much bigger the manifold ports and plenum are. But, considering what a new intake (which will obviously be very limited production) will cost, it better be worth 40 or more extra horsepower.

P.S. Lastly...why don't you guys just bolt on some nitrous oxide and be done with it?

P.P.S. Ok..ok...I was just kidding on the nitrous thing.

I passed my last smog test with a "siamesed" manifold, so I should do okay with a Renegade. A "siamesed" manifold REALLY kills port velocity. Big time!

 

[Hib Halverson]

Once you get it on there, I'd be really interested to see you post two things.

A-B dyno test data

A-B smog check data.

Doing that could do more to defeat the arguments of naysayers like me more than anything anyone could say in this thread.

 

[minifridge1138]

I have an 82 corvette that the PO put a carb on.
I have never noticed a breathing problem at 4k or above.
I have noticed that a stock 84 has a lot more low end torque than I have.
By the time I get into my power band I am almost out of speedometer.

As for CA law, you can do an engine swap going forward in time (85+) but not back. I'm not sure about a partial engine swap.

Good luck.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Once you get it on there, I'd be really interested to see you post two things.

A-B dyno test data

A-B smog check data.

Doing that could do more to defeat the arguments of naysayers like me more than anything anyone could say in this thread.

It'll be next April before I can provide the smog information. As far as a dyno test goes, I'll leave that to someone else. I will be curious to know how much horsepower my engine puts out after the manifold swap, but not curious enough to pay for a dyno test. And a dyno test wouldn't do any good unless there was a "before" and "after" test.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Well then any thing you say about a "performance increase" will not be credible.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Well then any thing you say about a "performance increase" will not be credible.

I will do some before and after tests and compare the times. I'll probably do some 60-100's so there is no tire spinning or shifting involved.

 

[Yoda]

Here I go sticking my nose it, where some think I shouldn't... But I ordered and owned one of the first 300 1984 DN 4/3 Speeds made and did some NCCC autocross racing. The weak link as far as I was/am concerned was the Transmission... GM rebuilt it once and it was in the shop for the second rebuild when I traded it for a showroom 1985... anywho..

I read early on in this thread that Hib offered to test or observe the testing of the new "Renegade" and author an article on it and the results.... seems to me that would not only document the Renegade but also give it credibility or put a knife in it's heart, either way it would be documented and probably given print in many Corvette Mags, as well as hotrod/car rags, and of course the internet

With all this speculation and he said, she said wouldn't it be to everyones benefit if someone that has the ear of the Renegade Mfr. maybe provide them with this information.. instead of :bash each other and living on expectations and assumptions

As a friend of mine says every so often... "I'm just saying"

Bud

 

[catbert]

Here I go sticking my nose it, where some think I shouldn't... But I ordered and owned one of the first 300 1984 DN 4/3 Speeds made and did some NCCC autocross racing. The weak link as far as I was/am concerned was the Transmission... GM rebuilt it once and it was in the shop for the second rebuild when I traded it for a showroom 1985... anywho..

I read early on in this thread that Hib offered to test or observe the testing of the new "Renegade" and author an article on it and the results.... seems to me that would not only document the Renegade but also give it credibility or put a knife in it's heart, either way it would be documented and probably given print in many Corvette Mags, as well as hotrod/car rags, and of course the internet

With all this speculation and he said, she said wouldn't it be to everyones benefit if someone that has the ear of the Renegade Mfr. maybe provide them with this information.. instead of :bash each other and living on expectations and assumptions

As a friend of mine says every so often... "I'm just saying"

Bud

Let's see - you're sayin that over 200 posts on the merits something that none of us has seen is silly? If we had facts, what would we argue about? This is like theoretical bench racing.

 

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)
I read early on in this thread that Hib offered to test or observe the testing of the new "Renegade" and author an article on it and the results.... seems to me that would not only document the Renegade but also give it credibility or put a knife in it's heart, either way it would be documented and probably given print in many Corvette Mags, as well as hotrod/car rags, and of course the internet

(snip)

Bud

Thanks to Yoda for bringing that issue back to the forefront of this discussion.

That offer, as stated early in this thread, still stands.

 

[Hib Halverson]

(quote)
This is like theoretical bench racing.

Uh, Catbert...is that, like...sitting around theorizing about a future bench racing session?

 

[catbert]

Uh, Catbert...is that, like...sitting around theorizing about a future bench racing session?

Pretty much.