Wouldn't Turn Over

[herron]

Went to the Woodward Dream Cruise in my '81 last Saturday, and everything was fine until the engine stalled about two hours into the cruise. When I went to restart, it wouldn't crank at all...no sound whatsoever from the starter.

A couple of kind folks pushed me around the corner, out of the way of traffic. One of them said something about "sounds like you lost the ground somewhere," and I was inclined to believe him.

Had just called for a flatbed to haul me home, when I thought I would try "one more time" (you know how it is when you just don't want to give up)? Well, it started! Left the Cruise and took it home by side roads, so I wouldn't have to crawl at Cruise speed (discretion is the better part of valor). Seemed to run OK all the way home (about 15 miles) and started fine Sunday.

Question is...what might have caused it? and what should be looking for? My brother-in-law thinks I need a heat shield for the starter (car does not run hot...on the contrary, gauge is hardly ever at 200). Although it might make sense, just because of the high heat from the exhaust, with no air flow to cool things.

What does anyone here think? Have you run into this before? ;help

 

[geekinavette]

A "hot starter" will not cause the engine to stall. If you have a failing starter the heat can cause problems when trying to start, but not when the engine is already running.

Poor connections at the starter however CAN do that...go over all of the battery/starter/alternator/engine ground connections...it's probably there somewhere.

Bill

 

[herron]

Not sure heat had anything to do with it stalling...may have been a bit of hot-dogging on my part. :eyerole

But it would not crank at all when I went to restart. It was about 15 minutes later that I tried one last time, before the flatbed arrived, when it started. Still wondering why it would start at all, if there was a loose connection. It's not like I did anything to correct it!

In any event, I'm definitely going to go over the electrical next weekend to check all the connections! :ugh

 

[Sensei]

It could be a lot of things: Distributor going bad, ignition module going bad, intermittent conection somewhere, or it may have been just a mysterious peice of crud somewhere that fouled things up and now is gone. The bad news is, you probably won't find out unless it strands you again. I would advise you to keep a GM shop manual and a few basic tools, including a multi-meter stashed in the car. God bless, Sensei

 

[geekinavette]

It could be a lot of things: Distributor going bad, ignition module going bad,...

These will not prevent the engine from cranking over, only from starting up.

Bill

 

[herron]

That's what I thought, too, Bill.

No electrical to the starter at all would seem to be the indication
when it won't crank...not even a click.

-----
May have to postpone my inspection.
Just found out I have to be in Chicago by Friday.
:confused

 

[geekinavette]

That's what I thought, too, Bill.

No electrical to the starter at all would seem to be the indication
when it won't crank...not even a click.

-----
May have to postpone my inspection.
Just found out I have to be in Chicago by Friday.
:confused

Or engine-to-battery ground (usually a large cable or braided strap).

Bill

 

[Yoda]

"Heat Soak" ~ the starter gets hot and internal connections EXPAND the field and open circuits the starter.... Then when cooled down it makes contact and starts That doesn't address the stall and engine dying... That could be a choke or carb adjustment issue

Next time the engine doesn't turn over... make sure you are in Neutral (4-speed) or Neutral / Park (Automatic) and short across the selinoid and see if it turns over

Bud

 

[tcolyer]

I have the same problem with my 82, It started doing this a last year and is still doing it. I have taken the starer apart, cleaned and replaced brushes, bushings, solenoid and added a heat shield. Periodically it still will not start. I can jump across the solenoid & it starts immediately. I have bypassed the alarm system, neutral safety & replaced the ignition switch. All of these items have not cured the problem. If anyone has an idea maybe it can help both of us.

 

[bill81vette]

I had a problem with my 92 chevy p/u dying on the road...
we scratched our heads for a month trying to figure it out
\one weekend we went camping with our club and one of the members happened to be a GM instructor at HVCC..He had us replace the ignition module in the distibutor...
might be worth a try...

 

[RC81]

Im thinking starter heat soak also. You should have a heat shield stock I think. Even though the car does not run hot you were idleing along and the starter was getting hot from the pipes. After a bit of cooling down it will start for the reasons Bud says. Had an 80 that did this all the time.

 

[hdkeno]

Thesame thing happened to me this past June,At a car show no less.


Car ran fine,then after the show was over would not crank,nothing.

I knew that the battery was good,its only a year old,and all the accessories were strong.

With the aide of another,show patron whom even had a 9/16th wrench i was able to get a hand on the (or wrench) nut holding the positive cable from the battery to the starter,it was loose, i jiggled the cable back and forth while he was in the car turning the key. Finally she fired up and i drove it back home. The next day i brought it down to my buddies garage,and when it was up on the lift,i did it right.,remove the heat shield and cable,cleaned the connections good,put a bit of dielectric on the ends,and put new nut and washe on and for good measure double nutted it.


Havent had a problem since.

Hope this helps, Ken

 

[Sensei]

These will not prevent the engine from cranking over, only from starting up.

Bill

You are correct, I had a brain cramp. But what I was thinking about was the car dying as it was running. If the starter overheats (and I have delt with this issue too), it does not stall the car, it just stops it from re-starting. God bless, Sensei

 

[blackandredvette]

I had the same problem on my '84 a couple of weeks ago. I put a new battery on and put in a couple of new terminal bolts and then I was good to go.

Brad

 

[geekinavette]

Im thinking starter heat soak also. You should have a heat shield stock I think. Even though the car does not run hot you were idleing along and the starter was getting hot from the pipes. After a bit of cooling down it will start for the reasons Bud says. Had an 80 that did this all the time.

I have to (respectfully of course) disagree. If the ONLY symptom were "no crank", then yeah the hot-starter-syndrome could easily be the cause. However, that was not the only symptom...the engine stalled. These two symptoms combined leads me to suspect a connection problem AT the starter, but not the starter itself.

Why: "usually" the way the power distribution works is a cable from the battery TO the starter, plus a cable from the alternator TO the starter, then the rest of the wiring to the vehicle's electrical system comes FROM the starter. Now I haven't personally studied a wiring diagram for an '81...and if it's different then maybe I'm wrong. So, with this wiring scheme, once the engine is running you can completely disconnect the battery and the engine electrical system will continue to function powered from the path from alternator through the starter connection and out to the engine, ignition system...etc (we've ALL done this at one time or another).

However, if the CONNECTION at the starter opens up, then the engine electrical system can't get power from neither the alternator NOR the battery, nor can the starter get any power from the battery to crank over....thus leading to the condition that herron originally described: engine stalled, and won't crank. The power connection at the starter is the one common point that can cause BOTH of these symptoms...a "heat soaked" starter cannot.

Happy wrenching!

Bill

 

[Yoda]

Bill,

I am thinking that the carb loaded up from idle and maybe a jackrabbit move every so often, and the starter problem is not related to the car stalling ...

I had this same issue with a 67 I had once. Parades were killers on it, the carb loaded up and when I punched it, the darn thing (more times than not) would stall and die. It also suffered from Heat Soak until I put a heat shield between the starter and exhaust manifold..

Hopefully we hear back what the fix is We could put a lunch on this next we meet, local burger barn hnoes

Bud

 

[geekinavette]

Bud...two different problems is ENTIRELY possible! (it IS a Corvette after all :L )

Dood I'll buy you lunch next time we meet regardless!

Bill

 

[herron]

I'm thinking Bud may be right. I did punch it a bit, when I got the chance. Two hours of bumper-to-bumper parade may have gotten to me (I'd much rather be on the open road somewhere). Didn't realize for a moment that the car had quit running, but got no crank at all when I went to restart it.

It sat long enough, out of the traffic jam with the hood up, for things to cool down. Even though it was not running hot, there was little in the way of moving air to cool anything at all.

The connections all seem good, and I have not had a problem since. I'm thinking heat soak, and will be getting one of those wraps for the starter!

Thanks everyone, for helping me think this through!


-----
Most importantly, will try to avoid long, stand-in-line, don't go anywhere parades from now!