Welcome to the Corvette Forums at the Corvette Action Center!

...somebody is profiting off Callaway owners and enthusiasts

*89x2*

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2002
Messages
10,357
Location
CallawayOwnersGroup.com
Last week it was a "metal sign"


...this week it is Callaway refrigerator magnets that seem to appear they were made from a pic from the Barrett-Jackson Auction
237a_1.JPG



The Speedster gets some love, too ;squint:


9ad8_1.JPG

s.gif




Here is the original pic:

24306_Front_3-4.jpg
 
That is why pictures should be copyrighted or watermarked.

-Luigi
:cool
 
On the negative side, someone is profiting from the use of someone else's pictures, but on the positive side, someone who doesn't know how to get magnets made is now able to purchase a pretty neat item.

This type of thing always causes a lot of debate. We used to learn about this stuff when I was getting my BA in advertising. I'm by no means a lawyer, but I'll share some of the things I remember from lectures...

You can bring in points such as "it isn't an officially licensed product," but many times, this doesn't matter. In cases where it matters, the logo has to be prominently displayed. For example, if the magnet was just simply the Callaway logo, and they were selling it, Callaway would have every right to pursue legal action. However, since it is just a picture of the product, and the company logo isn't prominently displayed (at all), the person who made it would most likely get away with it scott free. Callaway, or any other company, can't claim that they own the image of one of their products. BUT, if the picture was taken on their property (without permission) they would have the legal right to say that had grounds for legal action. To put it another way... fast food restaurants have every right not to allow you to photograph their menus. Their menus are part of their store, and you are in their store. But if you found one of their menus in the trash, by all means you can photograph it all you want.

The person who took the original pictures has very few legal grounds as well, because nothing was stolen. Once pictures are put on the internet, they are (effectively) considered public domain and most implied copyrights are no longer valid. The photographer's copyright only covers the original image. If someone resizes the image or in this case, trims it out, the copyright protection is severely weakened.

This law worked really well back before digital photography because someone would have to physically steal the image. When someone saves your image to their computer from your website, they aren't stealing the image. You were giving it away for free! ;shrug

There's also stuff that falls under "creative use." Creative use covers all forms of art and expression considered 'creative.' If someone took the picture of the Sledgehammer above and photoshopped it a different color, but the picture was exactly the same, it would void all copyright protection. Cutting the cars out and giving them very ugly shadow effects like these magnets would fall under this category.

Oh, but here's something ELSE. If someone took these magnets, scanned them in, and created exact replicas of them, they would be violating the original creator's copyright on their design! The original magnet maker could take legal action AND likely win! The same goes for those Lamborghini kit cars. The ones that are cast directly from molds made of official Lamborghini doors, quarter panels, etc. are violating copyrights. However, the ones that just sort of look like the same thing are completely legal! That is, until they put REAL Lamborghini emblems/logos on them, or claim they are Lamborghinis and try to sell them.

In the end though, copying is looked down upon, makes people mad, and should only be reserved to one's own personal pleasure. If a person wants to make himself some magnets, then that's great! But when he tries to mass produce them and sell them, it gets complicated and comes down to how the ad is worded, what the magnets look like, how big the logos are, etc. etc. etc. But misrepresentation is different from copyright law.

I'm no expert, but that's what I remember learning in school. :upthumbs
I'm sure there might be a lawyer on CAC to say I'm all wrong. :ugh
 
I like them :) Not that I would buy them but they look nice to me.
Maybe not entirely by the rules but where do you draw the line? Should he pay Callaway because they're Callaways or should he pay the owners of the cars?

Groeten Peter
 
Brangeta,

While I have not taken a course in this stuff, I have heard various lectures from attorneys on a different positions for the MPAA, RIAA, SMPTE, and other associations. You did a good job summarizing the laws as I remember them.

Soap box on....

However, there are considerable cost these days associated with providing nice pictures (air fare, gasoline, rental car, hotel, food, entrance fees, etc). While it does not cost much to post them for the general enjoyment and education of the community it is rather disrespectful for a 3rd party to profit from them without even asking for permission.

I generally degrade and resize images before posting them as you have no idea of the annual costs that I personally incur in going to these events. Granted, I derive much enjoyment and feel very priviledged to be able to do so.

I would be rather offended to find someone profiting from my good intended efforts.

Sop box off....

:chuckle

You can always buy prints, posters, mugs, magnets and puzzles of my pictures ;LOL

As long as I remember, I have put a small visual copyright on my pictures to help prevent this. I try to do it in inconspicuous places and if they really wanted or even knew how, could be edited out if they wanted to go through the trouble. And I have encouraged others to do the same ;)

I remember an old thread as to why pictures were being copyrighted :L

:w

-Luigi
:cool
 
In that case :D

I have a 1200 DPI scan of the Bridgestone run-flat poster
ready for reproduction ;squint:
It actually is a scan of the run-flat brochure but it is identical to the poster.


Do not need to print this poster myself cause I have the original :cool
 
That's why digital pictures are such a strange animal and the laws have trouble covering them.

You can think of it this way:

Even with a watermark or copyright symbol and such on an image, it's just like an artist signing a painting. So let's say Vincent Van Gogh just signed a painting he finished. It is his creative artwork and it has his name on it. He owns the copyright to the design.

But let's imagine that someone has a magical keyboard back then and they click the artwork, press "ctrl + c", then "ctrl + v" and they make an exact (not just ALMOST exact, we're talking 100% accurate) duplicate. All of a sudden there are two exact paintings in Van Gogh's studio and Van Gogh doesn't know a copy has been made. Van Gogh still owns the design of this second one and his signature is still on the painting. The person with the magical keyboard takes the painting and leaves Van Gogh's studio, leaving Vincent not knowing anything has happened. Vincent sees an exact duplicate of his painting for sale on a street corner and gets upset. Ultimately, he still owns the copyright because this copy would be considered a stolen copy and illegal. This person with the magic keyboard just stole Van Gogh's painting and is going to lose in court. It was no different than stealing the original (theft) except he left Van Gogh unknowing that it was stolen.

But what if the person went through some trouble to remove the signature from the painting? Well, it would still be illegal, but as the painting went from owner to next owner and so on, eventually the painting will be impossible to track down, and the current owner of it will have no idea who painted it, where the artist is, or how to get in contact with him. This happens all the time on the internet. (I save hundreds of photos a year, and I have no idea where I've saved most of them from, so if the 'signature' is missing, I have no earthly idea who to give credit to. Nobody would be able to tell the image was stolen. An example of cases where images are considered stolen is when people get sued for taking pictures of cars at events where cars can't be photographed. Like at super secret stockholder events at GM's design studio. This happened with the 5th gen Camaro concept years ago, and a lot of other ones lately. These people DO get in trouble! Another example where you'll get in trouble is if there is a notice at your son or daughter's graduation that you can't take pictures. If you take pictures despite this notice, and you keep them yourself and give them away for free, or have them printed and give them away, you're fine. But if you take pictures there and then sell them, you are breaking the law.)

But in another scenario, let's imagine that Van Gogh wins the magic keyboard in court, or simply, let's imagine he already had his own magic keyboard. And Van Gogh starts making copies and giving them away to anyone who comes to his physical store (www. vincent's store for free paintings . com or whatever). And these people get his painting for free. Well, in effect, he has no legal course of action against these people, because he still owns the original... but oh wait... the original is exactly the same as what everyone else owns. Who owns the original now? They're all the effectively originals because there's no way to tell the difference between them, and they were acquired for free. How will Van Gogh prove he owns the original? Does he have a way to prove that? If he does, he might win in court, but if he has no proof (which is usually the case) he can't win anything.

But what if the people he gives the paintings away to alter the copies? What if someone paints flowers on them? What if someone cuts the painting into the shape of a circle? What if someone else changes the color of the wheat fields into something offensive like marijuana fields? Well, despite Van Gogh's displeasure with people doing this stuff, they are perfectly within their "creative use" right. Or are they? They are likely protected by "creative use", even if they decide to sell copies of their modified paintings. However, court has certain restrictions on this (currently) and it basically comes down to... how creative were these changes? (...Can you measure creativity? How do you do this?) Was the original changed extensively enough that it is a completely new piece? (Or was it not changed enough, and therefore Van Gogh or the court has some legal recourse?) In most cases pertaining to images saved from the internet, the people who make modifications are perfectly within their right so long as their changes aren't offensive/defamitory/threatening/etc. if I remember correctly. But in most cases pertaining to things harder to copy, the piece better be pretty darn creative, or you're getting sued. If you just go out and make exact copies of Lamborghini body panels, you can't just paint them pink and say it's "creative use," you have to do something more to them like modify the shape.

Then again, back to the Van Gogh paintings story, what if someone just went to some trouble to remove the signature? And after a few weeks/months/years can't remember who made the painting they got for free? Or what if the painting didn't have the signature in the first place? Well then, that's pretty complicated (or simple, depending how you look at it). The original creator of the painting (Van Gogh) gets super angry about this person removing his signature on their copy when he finds out about it. He later finds out that this person is selling magnets made from his design (painting) which makes him even angrier!

What will the court do about it? Hard to say, because this person is skirting the "creative use" laws by removing the signature and making magnets, (or if the signature was never on there... they are just making magnets) and also, they still obtained the image legally as if it was a gift from Van Gogh. All they did was save a copy that Van Gogh was giving away for free. If they want to remove the signature from their property, it is their business. If they want to make magnets, it is there business if Van Gogh's signature isn't there. (Same thing goes for images without copyrights, watermarks, or logos). I believe in cases such as this, the most that is usually done is the request for credit. Van Gogh could request that he is credited for the image/painting, but once he gives copies of the painting away... his legal right to the paintings/images that he no longer owns at his studio/in-his-computer is completely gone (effectively). Another thing the courts can do is ask that the person who is selling these items stop. Just plain stop doing it.

Hopefully I wrote this example to make sense! I created it as I went along from my memory, so hopefully it is accurate.

This story is now (c) 2008 Brandon Brown. But oh crap, did I just give it away for free? I'm not sure... :( ;shrug;help
 
In that case :D

I have a 1200 DPI scan of the Bridgestone run-flat poster
ready for reproduction ;squint:
It actually is a scan of the run-flat brochure but it is identical to the poster.


Do not need to print this poster myself cause I have the original :cool
I'm not a lawyer, so don't take my advice literally, but as far as I know, legally, you just can't sell the scan. If you gave the scan away for free, even if you gave it away to thousands of people, Bridgestone would have to prove damages. And they likely couldn't do this because #1, the poster has been out of print for at least 10 years or more and #2 they'd have to prove that you giving away the posters for free affected them monetarily--that your free posters caused them not to be able to sell the posters anymore.

But in all likelihood, they are no longer selling the posters, so they can't sue for monetary damages. If you sold copies of the posters though, they could claim they own the design and sue you.

So either give them away for free, or don't give them away at all :).

OR, if you were going to sell them, you'd need to do something to get the design covered by "creative use."
 
The person who took the original pictures has very few legal grounds as well, because nothing was stolen. Once pictures are put on the internet, they are (effectively) considered public domain and most implied copyrights are no longer valid. The photographer's copyright only covers the original image. If someone resizes the image or in this case, trims it out, the copyright protection is severely weakened.

This law worked really well back before digital photography because someone would have to physically steal the image. When someone saves your image to their computer from your website, they aren't stealing the image. You were giving it away for free! ;shrug

There's also stuff that falls under "creative use." Creative use covers all forms of art and expression considered 'creative.' If someone took the picture of the Sledgehammer above and photoshopped it a different color, but the picture was exactly the same, it would void all copyright protection. Cutting the cars out and giving them very ugly shadow effects like these magnets would fall under this category.

Brandon, I am going to say I have to dissagree with you on this. Just because someone takes an image, let's say an 8x10 and "crops it" down to a 5x7, eliminating the background, it is STILL the same image and if it had a copyright notice, the "crook" is stealing the works of others.:eyerole

Should he pay Callaway because they're Callaways or should he pay the owners of the cars?

In this case, neither Callaway Cars or the Sledgehammer owner took the picture that I am aware of - neither party seems to be ther seller, either;squint:

Groeten Peter

I generally degrade and resize images before posting them...

As long as I remember, I have put a small visual copyright on my pictures to help prevent this. I try to do it in inconspicuous places and if they really wanted or even knew how, could be edited out ...
-Luigi
:cool


I agree, and people have asked why I have watermarked the COG pics. I have freely given them to those who ask (and state the purpose of use), but I have seen other pics show up on commercial websites and as you say, the cost alone, plus the principle of it all, makes me so firm on this matter:bash
 
Brandon, I am going to say I have to dissagree with you on this. Just because someone takes an image, let's say an 8x10 and "crops it" down to a 5x7, eliminating the background, it is STILL the same image and if it had a copyright notice, the "crook" is stealing the works of others.:eyerole

There's no stealing once pictures are put onto the internet and displayed in public. If the picture is password protected, then it is stealing. That's how current legislation sees it.

The best thing to do if you really want to keep others from stealing your images, particularly if they are high res, is to put them in a password protected PDF. You can restrict printing completely, can only allow low res printing, or can allow high res printing. You can even restrict viewing completely if they don't have the password.

There's only two flaws with current PDF security. One, is that a person can still take a screenshot and have the image, albeit, low res. Two, is that if you give the person the password to print the item, they can print it as many times as they want. You can't limit it to one printing.

The only way I know of to restrict printing to 1 copy is to use the internet and javascript. Once the person hits print, the javascript will close the window, and the IP will be blocked from accessing that particular file again. I don't personally know how to do this feature, I'm not much of a web guy. :ugh A lot of food places use this coding for printing off coupons.
 
That is why I assume that all pictures I post can and will be copied and why I don't post the large format originals and do put a signature in them. If they want to print them they won't have a good quality image particularly if they enlarge it.

While it does not keep them from cropping/modifying the image (and I have seen examples of my images modified on other forums) I at least make them work for it.

-Luigi
:cool
 
That is why I assume that all pictures I post can and will be copied and why I don't post the large format originals and do put a signature in them. If they want to print them they won't have a good quality image particularly if they enlarge it.

While it does not keep them from cropping/modifying the image (and I have seen examples of my images modified on other forums) I at least make them work for it.

-Luigi
:cool
Exactly, that's the proper way to do it these days.

I didn't care about anyone stealing my white Callaway C12 pictures, so I uploaded them at the original resolution to webshots.

However, everything else, I decrease the size to prevent misuse.

Another way to upload pictures and make them difficult to save is to put the pictures into SWF format (shockwave flash). If I remember correctly you can do this with Photoshop by doing a Save As, or Export. It's one or the other.

Making it into an SWF file makes a person REALLY have to work for it, to get the picture on their computer and into a printable format. It's a big pain in the butt that even I can't get around, and I'm pretty good at getting around things if I really want a picture! :D
 

Corvette Forums

Not a member of the Corvette Action Center?  Join now!  It's free!

Help support the Corvette Action Center!

Supporting Vendors

Dealers:

MacMulkin Chevrolet - The Second Largest Corvette Dealer in the Country!

Advertise with the Corvette Action Center!

Double Your Chances!

Our Partners

Back
Top Bottom