05`s Vettes Camaro Nose will be Gone

[Hib Halverson]

Now I'm just as much against rumour milling as the next person, so wanting to hear the truth of a matter is important to me too.

However, the smoking-crack and BS remarks only detract from your image, not his. It is possible to discuss a thing without making it a personal affront.

First, let me say, Shaarondippity, that I'm not active on the CAC because I'm anxious to enhance or to detract from my image. I'm not even sure what "my image," is other than to know that, to you, my use of hard-edged sarcasm is not attractive.

I also can see how saying that a rumor is "BS", and saying that somone who's making an observation that is grossly distorted might be viewing the subject while under the influence of mind-altering substances; could be perceived as less than attractive.

So, I withdraw those "personal affronts" and apologize to the members here for saying keying them in.

Now, let me rephrase....I think any rumors heard at the Milford Proving Ground about the C6's front end being restyled for MY07 are gross distortions of fact and probably are fiction. We've got about 18 months to wait and then we'll know. I hope to see some of you here talking about the 07's "restyle" in the summer of 06.

As for the Camaro-Corvette thing...again, those who say the 93-02 Camaro and the 05 Vette have the same style, need to look at the car's side-by-side and then make sure their vision is not distorted in some way. Just the fact that F-car 4's lights are on the front and side of the car's nose and the C6's are on the top of the nose and wrap into the front fenders, makes them different.

As for the car having not been released, well...we can argue the definition of "released" all day long, but trucks carring C6s to dealers are rolling towards dealers as we speak. In fact, my guess is that dealers on the SE part of the country have cars.

Lastly, the Viper....even the new one: it's just another low-quality, near-kit-car, parts-bin attempt by Chrysler at a sports car with a big-engine and a rock hard chassis set-up. Some day the Viper will get close to the level of refinement exhibited by Porsche and Corvette. When that day comes, then D-C's whips-and-chains-style, Cobra of the 90s will start selling more widely.

 

[DkBG]

"a low quality , near kit car " Wow ! My opinion of it is a little higher than Hib's , but I too don't think a Viper is anywhere near the car a Vette is . Cliff

 

[Hib Halverson]

Get a Viper up on a rack and start looking closely at how it is constructed. Also, take a close look at some of the minor and even "middle-grade" components used to make a Viper...you'll find their either from other D-C products or from other manufacturers.

Nevertheless, the Dodge Viper is a landmark car for Chrysler and blazes some trails the Vette has chosen not to go down...such as incredibly agressive exterior design, huge (but quite inefficient) engine and near-racecar handling in a base model and a race-only car as an uplevel model. Where the Viper falls short is in quality, refinement and advanced engineering. The engine is a relic (based on the old A-block Chrysler small-block with two extra cylinders added) as far as technology and efficiency, the chassis is pretty crude (ie: the only way D-C gets that car to handle is through tons of spring and roll stiffness) and the car, itself, is quite heavy (quite heavy *if* we are gong to compare it to leading-edge cars in the high-sports market segment such as Corvette and Porsche) One reason even the C5 Z06 did fairly well against the Viper, in spite of 100 or more less horsepower, is that it weighs 3118lbs (3108 for Z16) vs. the Vipe's 3380.

 

[rwd]

Arguing about whether cars look 'alike' is pointless since everyone has a different threshold/degree as to how much resemblance is necessary in order to qualify for 'alike.'

The C6 is a derivative, contemporary design. As Hill said in an article, "The GM design department was interested in creating a look that would follow the latest international design trends." The operant word is 'follow.' Corvette styling used to lead.

It's easy to make a machine operate better because technology continually evolves. What's hard is to break new styling ground and make the machine attractive.

Admittedly, GM was striving for a modern and contemporary design. By combining a bunch of styling cues into a new shell, they will inevitably please a number of buyers. However, 'modern' and 'contemporary' mean related to today or the recent past. Such designs sometimes become dated.

There have been rumors for several years that the body style would not last more than three years or so. As with any design, it can be improved upon, and hopefully they will. Eight years of stasis can be a long time for a modern, contemporary design once the newness wares off.

 

[ROCKETBLOCK]

Lastly, the Viper....even the new one: it's just another low-quality, near-kit-car, parts-bin attempt by Chrysler at a sports car with a big-engine and a rock hard chassis set-up. Some day the Viper will get close to the level of refinement exhibited by Porsche and Corvette. When that day comes, then D-C's whips-and-chains-style, Cobra of the 90s will start selling more widely.

Now I GOT TO agree with Hib on this one. The only item I might not agree with is "some day the viper will get close to the level of refinement". I don't know if this will ever happen. I guess that will depend on D-C's intentions for the future of Viper.

 

[Rob]

An interesting discussion to say the least...

However, what I don't see anyone talking about are numbers - performance numbers. Wind-tunnel testing numbers, etc.

The C3 was comparable to a brick in the wind. It looks beautiful, but when it comes to functionality in terms of performance, it was awful.

The mid-year Corvettes are beautiful to look at, but again, suffered from high speed stability when you would start to reach 100 mph. The front-end would literally start to float. The mid-year Corvettes were perfect examples of the ultimate in flashy/attractive design with little attention paid towards performance and the results that the design would have on overall performance. Ask anyone who raced mid-year Corvettes back in the day, what their overall impression of the Corvette was when they'd hit the straights. :L

Back in the sixties, high speed stability was not as much of an issue on the open road as it is these days. Roads were not engineered to handle 100+ mph cars.

These days, let's face it, on a Sunday morning or afternoon, you can easily and quickly hit 90+ mph on a 4 lane highway in just about any car you choose.

These days, high speed stability and aerodynamics are much more important than artistic style and design. If you want artistic style and design, buy a Bentley. If you want performance and want a car that has undergone major wind-tunnel testing in order to decrease coefficient of drag, and increase high speed stability and maximize performance and driving fun, then you're going to have to be willing to abide by the laws of physics and settle on buying something that may not look like a Mona Lisa, but rather is engineered and runs like a top-of-the-line Rolex.

So...the question then becomes - what are your priorities when buying an automobile?

Are you more interested in artistic design and visual appeal, or are you more interested in overall performance and aerodynamic efficiency. It's nice to try and find one that meets both desires, but it's not always conceivable to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Grizzly]

It has long been my contention that the great god of "coefficient of drag" has caused the increased lack of individuality of modern cars. You can only shape a bullet in one way and expect it to be stable and of low drag. That being said it is important that a modern high speed road car have some kind of racing heritage be it sports car or sedan racing. This requires the "bullet" shape.

How ever, how many of us have meet individuals who have built (rebuilt) cars with modern running gear that at normal road speeds have had almost the fuel efficiency and performance of the donor car and yet have a car with a shape like a brick.

I can't see why (except for CAFE averages) why styling studios can not show us more distincitive designs with a little less concern over aerodynamics.

I guess this is why resto rodding is so strong these days..............

 

[Chrisr]

I saw the C6 up close and personal yesterday at my local dealership. Yes, they were open on Labor day. As I was checking out the car, I thought to myself, "I can see a resemblence of a Viper, especially in the hood and fender lines." No sooner had I had this thought and the salesman says "ya know, it kinda reminds me of a Viper a little bit."
But a Camaro??? Not even close!!