1989 Not Starting

[Niteswench]

About 6 weeks ago, my '89 was sitting there idling before it suddenly quit running. The starter would crank but the engine would not turn over. Since then (and because she has 104K miles on her), I've replaced the following: all injectors and o-rings, fuel relay, fuel pump, spark plugs and wires, and the battery and cables.

When she still wouldn't turn over, I decided to "bite the bullet" and change out the timing chain. When the harmonic balancer was removed, a mixture of gas and oil started pouring out! After draining it, I figure there was about 2 gal of gas mixed in with the oil!

Everything is back together, aligned perfectly, etc., but still not starting. After some more research, I'm wondering if the ECM could be bad, although it wasn't showing any codes at any time throughout this ordeal.

If any one has ANY ideas or thoughts or is able to point me in a different direction, I'd surely appreciate it. I'm about at my wit's end and have a real 'need for speed' that just isn't sufficed by driving my 2nd car (a Saturn). Any and all help will be greatly welcomed!

 

[Patrick]

An '89? Hmm... moving to the C4 Technical and Performance Forum.

-Patrick

 

[Moonunit 451]

Waht do you mean gas mixed with oil? Where exactly was it coming from? Is there gas in the oil in the crank? How was it running before, how long have you ownedd and driven the car :confused

 

[vetteboy86]

I think we need more info.

 

[Niteswench]

I've had the car a bit over 3 years, is my daily driver, and it has always ran great! In fact, this is the first 'real' problem I've had with it. I had driven the car the day before and noticed it was idling a bit rough ... figured it was time for new plugs and wires. In fact, it started on this particular day just like it always does, idled for about a minute, and just shut off.

Yes, there was gas in the crank ... about 2 gallons as far as I can determine (I drained it all and poured the mixture into gallon jugs to determine this). I've read somewhere in this forum that if an ECM goes bad, it could cause the injectors to pass gas to the oil (don't ask me how, because the thread didn't delve into it). Anyway, that is the situation I have.

I was afraid with that much gas in the crank that the engine may have seized, but have since learned that not to be true.

 

[vetteboy86]

So the engine actually rotates, with the starter. I can believe that you didnt' screw something up with 2 gallons of gas in the oil. The case is not meant for that much fluid, and there was twice as much gas as oil.

It takes air, fuel, and spark to make the car run. You are missing something out of the equation. Check your fuel pressure to see if the fuel pump is working. Check to see if you are getting spark to the plugs. I would think you would just have to check a few.

 

[Moonunit 451]

That is one hell of a lot of gas. This is not good for your bottom end. I'm not sure, but, how else could gas get down there but bad rings or something more fatal.

There are lots of guys in here that know way more than me. I just follow instrucions I hope it's not terminal, someone will come along with more info. Good luck.

 

[Niteswench]

The fuel pressure is about 42#, which is ample. Each plug shows good spark, so that isn't the problem, either. You can bet I've tried all the "usual" tests one would go through when their car won't start. I never would have found the gas in the oil, though, if I hadn't decided to replace the timing chain after replacement of the other parts listed in my original thread didn't make a difference. Even changed the oil sensor because I read that a bad one could affect the fuel relay.

Is there any way to test an ECM on a car that won't start? I have a gut feeling there lies the culprit, but am reluctant to replace it if it's not the problem.

 

[vette-dude]

Have you done a compression check of the cylinders? If you have spark at plugs, fuel at cylinder and the timing is correct, and you have air getting to the combustion chamber it should fire. Evidently something is missing. If compression is low, Like 0 then maybe the valves are not opening letting air in or the plenum is plugged (think rats nest), the CAT is plugged or the cam has gone south. These are just thoughts. I would check compression, static timing, and air intake. Then if you have all the necessary ingredients to fire it up I would look at a possible plugged CAT.

Randy

 

[vetteboy86]

That is exactly what I was going to say next. If you have alot of gas in your oil, maybe the piston rings are toast. Which would possible lower the compression of the motor. I am going by 2 gallons of fuel in the oil, so if the rings were that bad, then the compression could be that low.

 

[Moonunit 451]

Might need to start a new thread, the guru's don't seem to be coming in. Someone here Can give a defifnitive answer or direction. Have you overheated the car severely at any point recently?

Try something like, Massive gas in the oil WTF? You'll get some more attention. Lot's of people have problems getting their cars started, and frequently it is easy to get answers to, so they may just skip if there is activity, thinking answers are being given.

 

[Moonunit 451]

Just talked to a mechanic freind who said a bad injector can cause gas to get by the rings, so maybe you're ahead of my thinking, since you alraedy replaced them. Did you find a problem with the injectors? Could you have gotten a bad one in the new set?

"The starter would crank but the engine would not turn over" doesn't exactly make sense. I assume that the engine turned over, but wouldn't fire. Was the car running strong before it died, with the exception of the rough idle?

I don't know if there's a way to check the ECM, but I'll try to find out.

 

[wishuwerehere82]

The thing that comes to mind when I read this post is an incident that my buddy Dave had on the way to Carlisle 2 years ago. The Fuel pressure regulator on his 94 stuck open and flooded the cylinders that had the intake valves open with gas through the intake manifold(and out the air cleaner onto the ground).

I will speculate that if you have the same problem the gas will fill a cylinder and flow past the rings into the crankcase if left long enough(overnight should do it). The same regulator can stick closed as well and cause a No-flow situation when you try to start it.
Fortunately, no damage was done to Dave's Vette, so probably none has occurred if this is your problem.

I'm not a guru, just seen a lot of weird stuff!

 

[MPoore]

The fuel pressure regulator has a vacuum line, which helps vary fuel pressure. If the diaphram is has a hole, excess fuel will be sucked into the intake.

Remove the vacuum line and smell the line for gasoline. If you smell gas, replace the regulator. You might see gas, if you have the vacuum line removed and pressurize the fuel system by turning the key to the "on" position.

Mike

 

[scorp508]

So it turns over, but won't fire?

You didn't happen to crimp an injector line causing it to ground out 100% of the time did you? On an 89 which is a Batch Fire injector system this would cause all 8 injectors to hang open 100% of the time. This is a bad thing. It could also be caused if the ECM blew and the injector drivers got shorted to ground.

Do you know anybody with a set of injector noid lights? They plug right into the injector harness so you can watch the injector pulse. You can also use a test light, these are just nicer.

 

[vetteboy86]

Can you ohm them?

 

[Agent 86]

http://members.shaw.ca/corvette86/EngineCranksButWontRun.pdf

 

[RWDsmoke]

The rings don't have to be bad to let gas into the crankcase. Back in the carburetor days I saw that happen even on new cars. When they hauled cars on the transport at a steep angle the carb float would let the gas through into the intake. As long as you changed the oil before starting it I don't think you hurt anything.