67 427/400Hp Air Coupe

[Elusive 67]

Hello to all:

My name is Dave and I would like to thank you all for allowing my first post to be putting a car up for sale.

This car has been my Brother-in-Law's pride and joy for the past 25 years. Unfortunately, he has suffered a massive stroke and has been in a coma for the last six months. My sister needs to sell the car to pay for the mounting medical bills. The car was professionally transported down to me in Orlando, Florida from NY this past weekend since I'm the only one in the family who knows anything about it.

From the tank sticker:
1967 Corvette Coupe
Marina Blue with white stinger hood
Bright Blue leather interior
A01 Tinted Glass
A31 Power Windows
A82 Headrests
A85 Shoulder Belts
C60 Air Conditioning
G81 Positraction 3.08 rear
J50 Power Brakes
K66 Transitor Ignition
L68 427/400Hp with tripower
M35 Powerglide Automatic Trans (now with M21 4-speed)
N14 Side Mount Exhaust
N36 Telescopic Steering Wheel
N40 Power Steering
N89 Cast Aluminum Bolt-On Wheels
P92 Whitewall 7.75x15 (now with Firestone Redlines)
U15 Speed Warning Indicator
U69 AM/FM Radio

The car underwent a professional body-off-frame restoration over 12 years ago with a NOM 1967 Corvette "JC" stamped engine and M21 transmission. All components have been restored as new or replaced. For those who care, the detail of the restoration went as far as body mount bushing tape, factory correct chalk markings on the frame, but no overspray of engine paint. The car's odometer was reset at completion and has 1,560 miles in 12 years snce the restoration.

I have taken two rolls of current pictures as well as the restoration photos. I will email to anyone who is truly interested in the car.

Price: $ 85,000.00 (extremely firm)

Thank you all for your consideration
-Dave H
d.han@earthlink.net

 

[Elusive 67]

Here's a simple web page with some pictures:
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ed.han/1967corvette427ci400hpcoupe/

 

[MidShark]

Dave

Sorry to hear about your brother-in-law. He's got a beautiful car. Good luck with the sale.

Rich

 

[Elusive 67]

Thank you, Rich.

I drove the car to the Daytona Speedway for the Turkey Run Car Show yesterday. There were over 4,000 cars at the show and I had fantastic response from the from the people who looked over the car.

I have someone asking me via the internet all the casting numbers / date codes but I do not know where some are located. Can someone direct me?

Carb numbers (keep in mind this is Tripower)
Manifold numbers
Distributor numbers (I have Transistor Ignition system).

Any help would be very appreciated.
-Dave

 

[JohnZ]

The carb numbers are stamped on the front side of the choke air horn on each carb - LIST number, part number, and date code. The original carbs with Powerglide would have been LIST 3888 (center) and 3659 (ends); 4-speeds used a different center carb (3660).

The distributor part number and date code is on an aluminum band around the housing just below the tach drive gear. It could be either 1111248 or 1111294, plus a date code.

The intake manifold casting number (3894382) is located about an inch forward of the distributor hole; most are not dated.

Exhaust manifolds have the casting numbers on the outboard side; 3880827 LH, 3880828 RH.; they aren't dated.

 

[Sting Ray]

Dave,

I am sorry that I missed your Car at the Turkey Run, I was there and could have answered some questions for you, sorry to hear about your Brother-in-laws problems, if you need to know any other questions, ask on the general forum, alot of us don't visit the for sale area much.


Tom M

 

[Elusive 67]

Thanks for the help guys and also the kind comments.

With your help I have put together all the codes I could read directly from the car:

From ID plate above glove box:
VIN # 194377S117571
Style: J02 67 437
Trim: 415AJ
Paint: 976AA

Engines Codes:
Engine Serial# T0915JC 7102229
Block ID Cast Code: 3904351
Block Date Code: H167 (this code is believed correct due to paint bubbles over numbers)
Above oil filter: Code HIPERF PA59 (or PAS9) 18


Carb Codes:
Carb#1 3902358-EU, LIST 3659, 2998, stencil 50650
Carb#2 3902355, LIST 3660, 1239, stencil 50570
Carb#3 3902358-EU, LIST 3659, 2998, stencil 50650

Intake Manifold Codes: Winters: 3894382

Exhaust Manifold Codes:
Right Side: 3880828
Left Side: 3880827

Transisitor Ignition:
Coil: 1115207
Distributor: 1111491

Alternator: 1100750 7D20

Starter: 1108371

Window Codes: All soft Ray tinted glass is NZ (Jan '67) except for VA (Dec '66) on Driver's Vent Window

Transmission Code:
3857584GM (this really strained my eyes and may be slightly wrong)
Distributor Code: TBA
Head Codes: TBA
Rear Differential Codes: TBA

If anyone has a comment or correction I would be most appreciative.

 

[JohnZ]

Dave - So you know what you have:

J02 on the trim tag is the body build date - May 2, 1967; final assembly was the next day.
415AJ trim is blue leather.
976AA paint is Marina Blue.

Block casting # is correct; it was cast in August, 1967 (per your casting date above the starter - please re-check that, as it originally went into a car that was built in 1966), assembled on September 15th, is the correct suffix code for a 4-speed, and the VIN derivative says it was originally installed in 1967 Corvette #102229, which was built on October 3, 1966.

Re-check the end carb numbers - they should be 3902353, not 3902358; LIST numbers are correct, and all three are service replacements - the end carbs were made in October 1978, and the center carb was made in May, 1979.

The coil is from a 350hp with Transistor Ignition; the 400hp used a 1111263.

If you check the passenger side of the transmission, on the vertical rib cast into the rear of the main case, there will be a stamped-in number starting with a "P" that will identify the transmission build date. On the same location on the driver's side vertical rib at the rear of the main case, there will be a 7-digit number stamped-in with the VIN derivative of the car it was originally installed in - if it's 7117571, it's the original transmission.

 

[Elusive 67]

JohnZ:
Thank you! I certainly own you a beer or seven....

I'll need to buy a small floor jack to get under the car further to read the tranny numbers.

I need to buy a new set of tires since I believe the Red Lines have permanent flat spots from sitting for so long. The car tank sticker shows the 775x15x2-ply WSW came with the car. Would you use the reproduction WSW Firestones or the Redline Firestones from Eckler's Corvettes? I thought the WSW would be the acceptable choice. Any thoughts?

 

[WayneC]

Since you are selling the car, I'd suggest you simply tell prospective buyers about the tires and let them replace them with the tires of their choice later.

 

[JohnZ]

I agree - most buyers will want radials anyway for normal driving, as the bias-ply tires are so ill-handling to drive on, and who knows whether they like whitewalls, redlines, or blackwalls.

 

[Elusive 67]

I updated the Code numbers in my prior post.

Also, I spoke with the original restoration shop owner who remembers this car very well. He recalls that my Brother-in-Law obtained the engine from another Corvette but did not know the details of how or why. The issue of restamping came up when this engine was put in and the decision was made not to restamp due to ethics as well as fraud.

I have been busy reading up on the issue and even contacted NCRS about the engine being a NOM and how they view it when judging for Top Flight.

I'm sorry. I'm still a newbie at this and I need to vent a little..

I don't know how you guys deal with the "Numbers Matching" grey area. There appears to be so much restamping going on that you cannot judge the real deal from the fakes without extensive measures. Many owners don't even know they've been a victim.

I had a conversation with someone about the car and they were questioning my price. I told them my price reflects the fact the engine is NOM. At least with mine you know it is a NOM / Restoration motor without a restamp and you aren't paying the premium for "originality". Which brings me to my next question; unless you go deep into the number history (tranny, heads, differential, carbs, radiator, alternator, starter, glass, etc), what is the point of engine block originality?

I feel like a red headed step child because I'm upfront about everything. I had someone ask me about NCRS Top Flight for this car-which I may go for in January to settle the questions about everything. It appears that NCRS will accept restamping the block as long as the block date codes work in series with the rest of the car!!!

It truly is blowing my mind. So...let's see.. I can ask more money for the car if I commit fraud and NCRS will give me a higher rating towards "Top Flight" rating because the engine boss has a VIN# that matches the car ID plate?!? Is anyone reading the rule book here? I guess I'll get the car rated and see where the chips fall.

 

[JohnZ]

I had a conversation with someone about the car and they were questioning my price. I told them my price reflects the fact the engine is NOM. At least with mine you know it is a NOM / Restoration motor without a restamp and you aren't paying the premium for "originality". Which brings me to my next question; unless you go deep into the number history (tranny, heads, differential, carbs, radiator, alternator, starter, glass, etc), what is the point of engine block originality?

I feel like a red headed step child because I'm upfront about everything. I had someone ask me about NCRS Top Flight for this car-which I may go for in January to settle the questions about everything. It appears that NCRS will accept restamping the block as long as the block date codes work in series with the rest of the car!!!

It truly is blowing my mind. So...let's see.. I can ask more money for the car if I commit fraud and NCRS will give me a higher rating towards "Top Flight" rating because the engine boss has a VIN# that matches the car ID plate?!? Is anyone reading the rule book here? I guess I'll get the car rated and see where the chips fall.

Dave, the key point in NCRS Flight judging is that the car is judged against a detailed, published standard as to whether it "appears" to be original, not whether it's ACTUALLY original (that's what NCRS "Bowtie" judging is all about). Yes, many engines have been re-stamped for judging, but the fine nuances of stamping and pad surface are easily determined in Regional and National-level judging, and deductions are taken accordingly. Most of the points for the block (613) are for the casting number (350) and casting date (175); the stamp pad only gets 88 points (25 for the engine plant stamp, 25 for the VIN, and 38 for the pad surface). Yours would judge OK for the casting number, but would lose the 263 points for the casting date (4 months after the car was built) and stamp pad. NCRS is also quite lenient in terms of component dating - anything up to six months prior to the car's assembly date gets full credit, although that "window" isn't "typical".

With a 263-point deduct for the casting date and stamp pad, the car wouldn't qualify for Top Flight (you can lose up to 270 points out of the 4500 for the whole car and still Top Flight), but it would probably Second Flight. The key issue with the car from a judging perspective is the block casting date - that's what causes the major deduction; if the casting date fit, you'd only lose 88 for the pad, and the car would have a shot at Top Flight.

The alternator (May 20, '67, correct number) appears to be original. Head casting numbers and dates aren't judged, nor are transmission and rear axle numbers - only external configuration.

 

[Elusive 67]

JohnZ:

Thank you, once again, for the detailed information. I needed to vent when someone asked about the window date codes via email. Frankly, after that question, I need a good scotch. (The answer is yes, the tinted windows are all NZ -January'67, except for one VA -December '66. See.... I'm catching on quickly)

In you're opinion, would you even bother to have flight judging on this car knowing what you mentioned about the engine deduct? Does the mileage adder for ~1,961 miles affect judged score? Does anyone care if the main reason it falls to Second Flight is because of the engine deduct?

 

[JohnZ]

Driven mileage (one way) to an event can add significantly to a car's score, and could put yours into the Top Flight category, and no one could tell that the driving points put it there without looking at the original scoring sheets; the "points" or "percentage" the car scored aren't shown on the Flight certificate - it just says "Top Flight".

As an example, let's assume that the car lost the 263 points mentioned above for the casting date and pad, and lost another 200 points (typical) from other miscellaneous deductions all over the car, for a total of 463 points deducted. Subtracting that from the 4500 points you start with, that leaves 4037, or 89.7%, which would be Second Flight (85%-93.9%), with Top Flight starting at 94%.

Driving points times 1% are added to the raw % score, not to exceed 10% of the raw score (which would be 8 points, rounded down, for that score); if this car was driven 500 miles to the Meet, 1% of that (5.0) would be added to the 89.7%, giving a final net score of 94.7%, which would Top Flight the car. Mileage driven in excess of 800 miles (the 8-point limit for an 89 raw score) would not gain any additional driving points.

That's why NCRS encourages driving your car to a Meet - it adds to your score, and can easily elevate a car from Second to Top Flight.

 

[Tyler Townsley]

That's why NCRS encourages driving your car to a Meet - it adds to your score, and can easily elevate a car from Second to Top Flight.

Kissimmee ain't THAT far from Orlando.

Tyler

 

[Elusive 67]

Hey Tyler:

We just spoke yesterday about the NCRS meet in January. Small world! The check is in the mail for Flight Judging the car.

I misunderstood the NCRS mileage adder as the drive to the meet versus total accumulated mileage for the car. JohnZ cleared up the info for me. I also ordered the NCRS judging guide for 1967 cars to see all the rules. There's alot of information for me to learn about the hobby in only 2 weeks since I have had the car. I assure you, I will have the manual and all part numbers/date codes memorized by January 19th.

 

[Elusive 67]

Block casting # is correct; it was cast in August, 1967 (per your casting date above the starter - please re-check that, as it originally went into a car that was built in 1966), assembled on September 15th, is the correct suffix code for a 4-speed, and the VIN derivative says it was originally installed in 1967 Corvette #102229, which was built on October 3, 1966.

JohnZ: The engine cast code after getting right up to it was incorrect at my first read. It is either "H116" or "H156" . There was some metal protrusion after the last digit which is shaped like a small 7 but it appears to be be nothing more than extra metal. That explains why I thought the code was wrong when I first thought it was HN67. Therefore, your interpretation of the VIN# and Engine Stamp falls in line with the cast code:

Cast Code: H116 or H156 = August 11 or 15th 1966
Serial# J0915JC = Assembled September 15, 1966
VIN# = 102229 from your information: Installed Oct, 3 1966 in some other early Corvette.

Everything then falls into line. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I am still beyond the 6 month acceptance window for NCRS point credit based upon cast date. My car was built on May 2, 1967.

 

[vettefinderjim]

Is it still for sale?

With all this new knowledge, is the car still for sale? And if so, still at $85000???

 

[Elusive 67]

Jim:

I just received my NCRS Judging Guide yesterday so now I can determine how the car rates against their standard. I will be at the NCRS Winter Regional at Old Town in mid January either in the For Sale corral or having the car Flight Judged to set a bench mark for those who care about those things.

The $85K price was based upon the wheels being original K-H bolt-ons. I have removed them and they are the Western Wheel K-H reproductions.

The car is still for sale. Make me an offer so I can get my garage back. My wife would appreciate it.