Important! 86 With no-start condition

[seabee 86]

1986E with 200+k

Alright heres the problem. Over the winter I replaced the PCV valves with those breather caps and deleted the EGR. When I eliminated the EGR and PCV valves I also eliminated everything that they attached too. The car will crank and fire right up like it did before I touched anything, but then it sputters and dies out within 1 second. If I rev it up it'll stay running, however I feel the engines RPM's are not relevant to how much I'm depressing the throttle (it seems the engine is revving higher than it should, but not 100% sure). Also when I rev it up, I can occasionally hear a "popping" sound coming out the exhaust.

At first I thought it might have to do with the new PROM chip I got for the EGR delete. However after taking it out and trying it again I got the same results.

Any and all guess are welcome, the car is in my neighbors garage because he spends the winter in Florida. He will be back next week so I kinda need to get this done asap. Thank you all for your help!

 

[boomdriver]

1986E with 200+k

Alright heres the problem. Over the winter I replaced the PCV valves with those breather caps and deleted the EGR. When I eliminated the EGR and PCV valves I also eliminated everything that they attached too. The car will crank and fire right up like it did before I touched anything, but then it sputters and dies out within 1 second. If I rev it up it'll stay running, however I feel the engines RPM's are not relevant to how much I'm depressing the throttle (it seems the engine is revving higher than it should, but not 100% sure). Also when I rev it up, I can occasionally hear a "popping" sound coming out the exhaust.

At first I thought it might have to do with the new PROM chip I got for the EGR delete. However after taking it out and trying it again I got the same results.

Any and all guess are welcome, the car is in my neighbors garage because he spends the winter in Florida. He will be back next week so I kinda need to get this done asap. Thank you all for your help!

I fail to understand why people feel the need to destroy their contemporary engines applying yesterdays theorys to todays technology...Not trying to be an ass...I just don't get it. :confused

The EGR does nothing to rob power or performance. In fact, it helps by preventing your fragile little aluminum pistons from beating themselves to death knocking from excessive combustion temps. The only way your ECM can now do that is to retard the timing and actually LOWER the performance because there is no EGR to cool the extreme combustion temps. Thats all EGR does...it keeps the combustion temps down to a reasonable temp so the engine does not melt down. It also helps keep the toxic NOx gases in balance with the HC.

PCV just keeps a vac on the crankcase so you have negetive pressure on seals and under the pistons so things are not leaking and gasoline fumes and blow-by are BURNED instead of diluting the oil and ruining its ability to lubricate. PCV does nothing to rob power or performance. It has benefits.

You're hearing some combustion problems in the exhaust that might be burnt valves, poor combustion or the timing way off. There is no way in this world that an "off the shelf" prom can properly compensate and tune a motor that was designed for EGR and had it deleted. The stock prom certainly has no value now.

Sure, motors are built and run everyday without EGR...for the track.
They are tuned for that with proper fuel/air ratios, timing curves and temp considerations.There is a balance that has to be maintained. This is EFI, it needs all this stuff.

Best guess, the engine is a mess regarding the tune. Its a computer, it likes its sensors and ability to make adjustments. A/F ratios & combustion temps are off...o2 sensor is still there not seeing what it should...the prom is as generic as toilet paper. Probably too rich, too hot combustion.

 

[seabee 86]

I fail to understand why people feel the need to destroy their contemporary engines applying yesterdays theorys to todays technology...Not trying to be an ass...I just don't get it. :confused

The EGR does nothing to rob power or performance. In fact, it helps by preventing your fragile little aluminum pistons from beating themselves to death knocking from excessive combustion temps. The only way your ECM can now do that is to retard the timing and actually LOWER the performance because there is no EGR to cool the extreme combustion temps. Thats all EGR does...it keeps the combustion temps down to a reasonable temp so the engine does not melt down. It also helps keep the toxic NOx gases in balance with the HC.

PCV just keeps a vac on the crankcase so you have negetive pressure on seals and under the pistons so things are not leaking and gasoline fumes and blow-by are BURNED instead of diluting the oil and ruining its ability to lubricate. PCV does nothing to rob power or performance. It has benefits.

You're hearing some combustion problems in the exhaust that might be burnt valves, poor combustion or the timing way off. There is no way in this world that an "off the shelf" prom can properly compensate and tune a motor that was designed for EGR and had it deleted. The stock prom certainly has no value now.

Sure, motors are built and run everyday without EGR...for the track.
They are tuned for that with proper fuel/air ratios, timing curves and temp considerations.There is a balance that has to be maintained. This is EFI, it needs all this stuff.

Best guess, the engine is a mess regarding the tune. Its a computer, it likes its sensors and ability to make adjustments. A/F ratios & combustion temps are off...o2 sensor is still there not seeing what it should...the prom is as generic as toilet paper. Probably too rich, too hot combustion.

You were absolutely no help to me. I posted this thread because my car won't start, not to debate the importance of emissions paraphernalia. You say its important; I say it complicates and pollutes a perfectly good engine with half burnt exhaust gas containing no oxygen and blow-by gases with motor oil in them. Your suggestions were useless, if you have nothing to help solve my dilemma than do not respond.

 

[djsroknrol]

Check your fuel pressure and timing.....

On a footnote, boomdriver's comments were not out of line and explained what the results of those components absence would/could do....

 

[Hib Halverson]

I say: let "seabee 86" figure it out for himself. Someone who knows so much about exhaust emissions controls ought to at least be able to figure out an idle stability problem.

Ok...I'll offer one clue:

Read the Service Manual section on unstable idle.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Ok, ok...I know. I should be nice.

Try this...restore the PCV system to stock and see if the engine idles. The PCV affects idle in that some of the idle air comes through the PCV. If you block off that air flow, the engine's idle stability will be degraded.

 

[seabee 86]

I'm not saying his comments were out of line; by all rights he is correct in everything he said except for the part about my PROM chip. The stock one was never touched, what I have plugs into the old one and is completely reversible. What bothered me is I did not ask for anything he told me--I need help getting my car started; not a run down of the emissions system and why I need them.

Unlike some of you I am fairly new to this and I do not know it all nor ever claimed to. I apologize for being a dick but as I stated, I need to get my car started and out of my neighbors garage.

Hib: Thank you for the help, believe it or not was going to be my next step. I'm fairly certain this is a result of a vacuum leak.

 

[Hib Halverson]

I don't know the specifics of your current calibration, but if it was not designed specifically for a non-EGR application, that's going to cause you trouble, too.

EGR engines are often unable to run without part-throttle detonation when the EGR is inoperable and the cal is for an EGR engine. In fact, one of the prime clues to faulty EGR, is when the engine runs with detonation at part throttle.

To run with no-EGR, you need to get a cal with a revised part throttle spark map.

Lastly, on EGR, even when the system is present and working properly, it's disabled at high part-throttle and at WOT, so it does not affect performance.

As a Seabee, you probably understand the respect that is due those with more experience than yourself. Please, give that respect to "Boomdriver". You've made 3 posts. He's made 1181 and helped many a CAC member. Your belief that his comments didn't relate to your problem are unfounded. A faulty EGR valve can cause problems with idle. A blocked PCV will cause problems with idle.

Lastly, I'd reconsider the idea of running open breathers on the street. While it is true that the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) is an emissions control device it is much more a durability enhancement because it cleans the crankcase of moisture and corrosive vapors. That said, if you insist on using open breathers, you MUST change your oil change interval to every 500 miles because, lacking a PCV system, that's the only way you'll keep the inside of the engine from developing corrosion and deposits.

In my years in the Corvette hobby, I've disabled/removed a few pieces of emissions equipment, but I've NEVER disabled a PCV system. In fact, I check PCV systems regularly and service as necessary.

 

[vetteboy86]

You were absolutely no help to me. I posted this thread because my car won't start, not to debate the importance of emissions paraphernalia. You say its important; I say it complicates and pollutes a perfectly good engine with half burnt exhaust gas containing no oxygen and blow-by gases with motor oil in them. Your suggestions were useless, if you have nothing to help solve my dilemma than do not respond.

I'm not saying his comments were out of line; by all rights he is correct in everything he said except for the part about my PROM chip. The stock one was never touched, what I have plugs into the old one and is completely reversible. What bothered me is I did not ask for anything he told me--I need help getting my car started; not a run down of the emissions system and why I need them.

Unlike some of you I am fairly new to this and I do not know it all nor ever claimed to. I apologize for being a dick but as I stated, I need to get my car started and out of my neighbors garage.

Hib: Thank you for the help, believe it or not was going to be my next step. I'm fairly certain this is a result of a vacuum leak.

Consider yourself fortunate that after your second post that anyone has given you the time to assist in your dilemma. Did you expect to correct your issue with one reply? Simply put if you don't like like the replies your getting to your posts, don't post.

 

[seabee 86]

Consider yourself fortunate that after your second post that anyone has given you the time to assist in your dilemma. Did you expect to correct your issue with one reply? Simply put if you don't like like the replies your getting to your posts, don't post.

Alright, fair enough. I was being an ******* and I apologize. My comments were out of line and uncalled for. I am normally not like this, at the time I read what was said I was not in a good mood and my response reflected. Ultimately however there is no excuse for what was said; so again, I apologize. There is no room for that kind of a poor attitude in any forum, this is a place where people are supposed to help each other not snap at what one would deem an "inadequate response". I was out of line and take full blame. Please forgive what I said and know that it will not be an issue again, I want to help others and receive help on this forum as much as anyone else.

Here is to a hopefully fresh start and again my apologies.

 

[John Robinson]

 

[vetteboy86]

Alright, fair enough. I was being an ******* and I apologize. My comments were out of line and uncalled for. I am normally not like this, at the time I read what was said I was not in a good mood and my response reflected. Ultimately however there is no excuse for what was said; so again, I apologize. There is no room for that kind of a poor attitude in any forum, this is a place where people are supposed to help each other not snap at what one would deem an "inadequate response". I was out of line and take full blame. Please forgive what I said and know that it will not be an issue again, I want to help others and receive help on this forum as much as anyone else.

Here is to a hopefully fresh start and again my apologies.

Good Deal!

Did you make any progress on your no start condition? What is the current status?

 

[seabee 86]

In all honesty I'm beginning to think it is not a vacuum leak. I was inspecting under and around the throttle body and noticed that coolant was leaking from the Idle Air Control Valve. It got me thinking so I unplugged it and attempted to start the car again. Naturally it did not start, however, it exerted the same characteristics as it did when it was plugged in.

Aside from the apparent coolant leak I have, can a faulty IAC valve result in a no start condition? Does anyone know of a way to test them?? I ordered one from Advanced earlier today, my feelings are if its not the issue I'll take it back.

I know its not a timing issue, my car runs perfectly when you give it enough gas. I'm fearful of running it at high RMPs for a prolonged time until I can be 100% its not running lean due to the EGR removal.

 

[vetteboy86]

Have you tried to retrieve any trouble codes? I wouldn't dismiss the TPS either. If coolant is in the area, electronics could be compromised.

We may be getting ahead of ourselves, did you disconnect any ignition components, spark plug wires perhaps. If you did verify your plug wire routing.

 

[boomdriver]

Alright, fair enough. I was being an ******* and I apologize. My comments were out of line and uncalled for. I am normally not like this, at the time I read what was said I was not in a good mood and my response reflected. Ultimately however there is no excuse for what was said; so again, I apologize. There is no room for that kind of a poor attitude in any forum, this is a place where people are supposed to help each other not snap at what one would deem an "inadequate response". I was out of line and take full blame. Please forgive what I said and know that it will not be an issue again, I want to help others and receive help on this forum as much as anyone else.

Here is to a hopefully fresh start and again my apologies.

Being old and having seen or done every mistake in the book, I sometimes am too blunt and harsh. Straight forward due to a lack of time. It might sting a bit, But I'll always be honest.
My goal was not to offend, but to drive home a point in as few keystrokes as humanly possible. By doing these things you open a can of worms that can lead to disaster.

Having said that, start diagnosing this with a very simple tissue test....

start the car, hold a small piece of tissue at the exhaust tip...watch it and note if it EVER sucks inward. If so, the possibility of a bad valve exist. The same holds true on the intake side if there is any spitting or poping in the intake.
Then, if there is no issue there, start searching vac lines and plastic fittings. Look at the brake booster line, and your EGR plug...it can leak.
Pull spark plugs and examine the color of the insulator. If there is a problem with a specific cylinder, it will show up that way. If they ALL look the same then its more a tuning issue over-all.

Beyond that, I can only tell you that I once believed that this "stuff" was the devil, as you do...Until I understood the technology, I was making the same mistakes. Having grown up on old "hot-rods" I too was unable to grasp how a contemporary motor works. It took destroying a few before I learned, the hard way.
In order to have engines that perform as these can do, and stay running well into the 1/4 mil mile range, the precision control of the engine is an absolute MUST, and that includes crankcase scavenging AND control of combustion temps.
Since this is all that I can possible offer, I'll step out now and leave you with this thought....

What we don;t understand, we will fear. The PCV is your friend...

 

[Schrade]

You were absolutely no help to me.

It is difficult enough to diagnose a car which still has all the OEM plumbing attached. VERY difficult.

A modded car, in any sort, is almost impossible to diagnose.

An aftermarket chip is good only for a car which has baseline operating parameters measured. Otherwise, it is a waste of cash.

NO ONE would know exactly where to tell you to start, specific to an '86.

Generic checks? Fuel pressure. Static, for starters. Static timing, then air filter check.

Post back on those, and we may see something definitive to look at.

 

[strokin383-c4]

Its your IAC motor.... Its stuck closed.. when you let off the throttle it doesnt mechanically operate to stay open causing the engine to suffocate. replace it, its connected to your throttle body.

 

[seabee 86]

Its your IAC motor.... Its stuck closed.. when you let off the throttle it doesnt mechanically operate to stay open causing the engine to suffocate. replace it, its connected to your throttle body.

I posted on that earlier, I guess you didn't see it and in all honesty I hope you didn't. The fact that somebody else said what I said gives me a glimmer of hope that this is the issue. I was looking around under the throttle body for something stupid like an unplugged sensor or loose wire, and noticed coolant leaking out of the throttle body and dripping down onto the IAC.

I purchased one on Saturday and will pick it up later today, hopefully this is the issue.

In response to someone else's question, good fuel pressure, no codes.

 

[seabee 86]

Replaced IAC valve, still no start.

 

[Schrade]

In response to someone else's question, good fuel pressure, no codes.

Was that static fuel pressure? Or dynamic (motor running)? How 'bout pressure bleeddown time?

You have to be even MORE exact with measurements when you have mods, than with none at all...