'87 No Start Problem

[Ghost~3~]

Well after a YEAR of not having a Mysterious "NO START" problem, it's BACK as of today! Pulled into the driveway from just a local drive around town, and later on, thought I'd go get a bite to eat and then NO START!! ad Car has 69,000 mile's.

Turned the key ON and "NOTHING"....Radio comes On, Antennna goes Up,
Dash light's up, Everything but "START"...

I've done ALL the "Usual" thing's...New Battery, Starter, VAT'S By-Pass, from
Mid-America, Tug-Pull on EVERY wire connector, Tried BOTH Ignition Key's I,
have for the car, Jacked it up and Rapped on the starter with a Hammer, Shorted across the starter connection's and it spun OK...Still NO START.

Suggestion's??? :confused

 

[jsinga]

Has your lock cylinder ever been replaced? That sounds like the VATS problem. If your lights don't dim it's somewhere in the starter interupt circuit. My 87 did the same type thing.
Most of the early pass key cars had problems with the switch. It won't make contact with the resistor in the key and the VATS thinks the wrong key is in the car and won't do anything for 5 minutes from the way I understand it.
Most cars with any kind of miles have long ago had the switch changed. Mine's been done over 10 yrs.

 

[I_R_DA_ONE]

I had the same proablem on my 86 and the cure was making a new key..

 

[Ghost~3~]

As far as I "Know"....It's the OE Cylinder Lock Assembly & Key's.

 

[Ghost~3~]

Let the car sit over night...Got in and it fired right up on the FIRST try!

That just "FIGURE'S"!!

 

[G Winter]

You didn't say if it cranked or not or if it is an auto or a stick. If it is a stick and you don't get cranking it could be your clutch safety switch.

Glenn

 

[Jeb]

If you've already by-passed the VATS, you can cross that one off your list.

What you describe indicates it may be a heat generated problem. When whatever it is that is causing it, gets hot, it craps out. Then, after it cools down, all's well.

You might want to check the starter relay which is located behind the driver information panel.

Just a thought or two.

 

[Ghost~3~]

If you've already by-passed the VATS, you can cross that one off your list.

What you describe indicates it may be a heat generated problem. When whatever it is that is causing it, gets hot, it craps out. Then, after it cools down, all's well.

You might want to check the starter relay which is located behind the driver information panel.

Just a thought or two.

Well as I mentioned Up Top, the Vat's is "By-Passed", so I'm down to the Starter Relay behind the INFO center, or Cylinder Lock Assembly, if it comes down to that as there's little else that hasn't been changed with NEW part's
already. The car has an Automatic Tran's, so there is the possibility that the Neutral Safety Switch has an Intermittant problem?? But I'll go after the
Relay for the moment.

Appreciate Everyone's Imput...

 

[Jeb]

I think you can also cross off the ignition switch. If everything that is supposed to come on when you turn the key, except the starter, does come on, the switch is working fine. There could be a loose wire from the switch but that wouldn't fix itself just by sitting there for a while.

Yes, the neutral safety switch could also be the culprit but I think I'd put my money on the starter relay if only because it's easier to fix.

 

[Ghost~3~]

Yup!

 

[Jeb]

Yup!

I am going to assume that the problem was the starter relay.

Congratulations!

Enjoy your car.

 

[Ghost~3~]

Well...FINALLY had a weekend to dive into the dash...

No "Big Deal" getting the face plate off, and into the backside of the Info Center, where the relay is located.

As the local Chevy dealer part's is closed weekend's, it was off to NAPA,
and they cross referanced the OE part number to a NAPA/Echlin part, and
$14 buck's later, I had that "Damned Relay" in hand!

The headlight relay is located next to the starter relay, might be shall we
say "WISE" to change that one too....Knowing MY "Luck"!! it would take
a DUMP...."Next Week"!!

NAPA was outta stock on the headlight relay, so I'll order one from work
on Monday, and get it delivered to me at the shop. No other part's store
had it either.

Also, I found 3 Fuses located there that nobody has seemed to mention before?? a 3 AMP, 15 AMP and 5 AMP, the 15AMP to the VAT'S was Blown!

Chevy was good enough to locate the #552 Turn Sig Flasher there too, so
I, that changed that too.

So, I should be road ready by Mid-Week.....

 

[Jeb]

Good deal.

Now you can un-by-pass the VATS, eh?

I'm old school on that other relay though. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Chances are you'll just get a bad relay and replace a good one and then the car will run but not at night. LOL

 

[Ghost~3~]

Hell either way I "KNOW" I'd end up taking the thing apart "AGAIN"!

 

[Ghost~3~]

Good deal.

Now you can un-by-pass the VATS, eh?

I'm old school on that other relay though. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Chances are you'll just get a bad relay and replace a good one and then the car will run but not at night. LOL

Ummmmm....Not so Fast!! "Houston, we have a PROBLEM"!! :ugh

I, stopped by the Chevyman, today with replaced OE pieces in hand, and
now is where thing's get a bit more.... "Mysterious" ???

Working from behind Left side of dash Info Center, on far left is the #552 Emergency Flasher, then to right of that the 3 Fuses, then a 4 wire RELAY
wire are colored, 2 are Pink,Green,Black, which I, took as being the starter
Relay. Chevyman say's it's a HORN Relay. ????

To the right of that is another relay which at NAPA came back as a Headlight relay, But at Chevy comes back as "Theft Deterant"....Granted you can use a relay to do differant thing's with the SAME OE part #. The Wire's are colored Yellow,Green,Green/White Trace,

On the Far RIGHT is a "Bright BLUE" colored module which at Chevy comes back as part of the Anti-Theft System. Is that unit the "Actual" VAT'S unit,
or is it another RELAY??? From what I've read in another thread, the VAT'S
is located BEHIND the "BIG BLACK PAD" on the right side of the dash where
most car's have a glove box. ??? The Chevy Guy was NOT 100% "SURE" it
was the VAT'S. Also did NOT have a Picture location of where the VAT'S is
on an '87 Vette.

So...It's kinda got me "WONDERING"?? Is the supposed Horn Relay, actually the Starter Relay?? There is NOTHING Else, to be found behind the Info Center. Any other possible location??

Also after installing all the part's, and the 15 amp fuse, I hooked up the battery and the HORN'S started Blowing...Had to pull the fuse to kill the
horn's.

I did FORGET to mention the Horn's had been INOP for as long as I have owned the car as I didn't KNOW about the 3 Fuses behind the info center.

So if the starter relay is the one behind the Info Center...where is the HORN relay located??

I'll also assume that the Anti-Theft is causing the Horn's to go OFF as that 15 amp fuse protect's the Anti-Theft, and the Horn's are tied into that system at some point, or they wouldn't STOP when I pulled the fuse.

So now What?? :ugh

 

[Jeb]

The relay with two pink and two black wires is the horn relay. There should be 1 dk green, 2 pink, and 2 black wires to it.

The blue module is the VATs module. If I recall, it measures about 2x3x1/2 inches or close to that. Wires to the VATs module are
Dk Grn
Brn
Yel
Pink/Blk
White
Black

I saw a photo that someone took of the space behind the glove box area around here a few days ago but I can't find it now. I'll keep looking tmmw and if I find it, I'll give you a link.


The starter relay, also if I recall correctly, is located behind the breadbox where normal people would put a glovebox. I may be wrong on the location but I believe it's there. It's been a year since I was fooling around behind the dash so I might be wrong. It could be in the center behind the info center.

 

[Ghost~3~]

The relay with two pink and two black wires is the horn relay. There should be 1 dk green, 2 pink, and 2 black wires to it.

The blue module is the VATs module. If I recall, it measures about 2x3x1/2 inches or close to that. Wires to the VATs module are
Dk Grn
Brn
Yel
Pink/Blk
White
Black

I saw a photo that someone took of the space behind the glove box area around here a few days ago but I can't find it now. I'll keep looking tmmw and if I find it, I'll give you a link.


The starter relay, also if I recall correctly, is located behind the breadbox where normal people would put a glovebox. I may be wrong on the location but I believe it's there. It's been a year since I was fooling around behind the dash so I might be wrong. It could be in the center behind the info center.

Thank's Jeb, I got hold of a BETTER Chilton's than I was using, and the
Schematic for the horn relay is EXACTLY as you stated and what I had come
to think about it. So that's one down.

The "Supposed" Headlight relay according to NAPA, is actually the Starter Enable Relay, with 2 Heavy Gauge Yellow wire's, a solid Green, and one Green/White trace wire.

The Blue Module is as you stated, and the VAT'S "Decoder Module" according to Chilton's. Which "Read's" the small pellet in the Ignition key to be able to start the car.

I don't see any other mention in the schematic of anything else referrencing
the VAT'S system, or any locations.

However I DID read in another thread something about the MAIN VAT'S
unit being BEHIND the "Breadbox"??? I'll see if I can locate that thread ?

I'll fool around with it somemore today and see if I can get the Damned Horn's to shut off and get the Theft system working corectly??? :ugh

This has been more of an "Adventure" than I figured on!

 

[Jeb]

That module is all there is that concerns the car running. All it does is "read" the resistance pellet in the key and, if it's correct for the specific car, it allows current to the starter relay and, I believe, the fuel pump relay. The other part of the security system, doesn't affect the drivability of the car, unless you can't drive it with the horn honking. :L (The alarm will work even if the VATs is by-passed.)

When you by-passed the VATs module, you effectively took that circuit out of the picture and thus, the starter relay and fuel pump relay should both be operable, even if there is no resistor pellet in the key.

Did you take the steering column apart during this "chase"? If so, you might have boogered up the horn contacts which would account for your horn going off constantly. I boogered up mine when working on it so I speak from experience here. otfl

Working on these machines is most certainly an adventure but when you get her running and are able to take her out on some nice winding country road with the wind blowing through your hair, it'll make it all worth while. IMO, one of the best things about these older Vettes is that you can work on them and when you're done, you get the satisfaction of having fed your own horse.

 

[Ghost~3~]

Jeb, Nope!! never took the steering column out or even messed with it, so that isn't the cause of the horn's going off.

I'll fool with it somemore, as I spent yesterday afternoon, and this AM replacing the water pump and various hoses etc on my brother's Blazer! :L
Here I was going to just have a "Nice" 5 day's off from turning wrench's
on Crown Vic Police car's all week, and figured I'd just "Tinker" with the
Vette at my "Leisure"!! and he looses a water pump!!

Biggest thing for "Me" is I KNOW where every little item "IS" on a Crown
Vic, and ALL the "Shortcut's" to everything, with the Vette it's a LEARNING
CURVE experiance each time something break's or wear's out from age,
and with 98% of my tool's at work, I'm badly SPOILED not being able to
just reach into my tool box for whatever I might NEED at the moment,
that MIGHT make the job a bit...."Easier" !!?? :W

I REALLY "MISS" a Car Hoist for example!

But Yeah like ya said....ain't nothing more "FUN" to just go out for a cruz,
after ya spent some time getting thing's fixed and just Blasting thru a few
"Twisty's"!!