Question: AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)

[Marv02]

Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)

I getting ready to buy some ATF for my newly rebuilt 700r4 what type of ATF should I use.

I been thinking of buying Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) $130.00 but is it worth the extra money or just get the standered stuff.

Is Walmart stuff for $50.00 good enough.

I read All standered ATF should be made the same.

Cheeper would be better but I know sometimes it better to spend the money than go cheep.

 

[boomdriver]

I getting ready to buy some ATF for my newly rebuilt 700r4 what type of ATF should I use.

I been thinking of buying AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) $130.00 but is it worth the extra money or just get the standered stuff.

Is Walmart stuff for $50.00 good enough.

I read All standered ATF should be made the same.

Cheeper would be better but I know sometimes it better to spend the money than go cheep.

I can't speak to the AMSOIL brand, but I did read some studies several years ago that I used to get at the office from our lab that did our oil analyzing and their reports stated that overall automatic trans failures in fleet service (like UPS, Taxicabs etc) ran a consistant 6 per 100 units annually when standard trans fluid was used. After switching to synthetics that number went down to 1% per 100 annually with fleets that originally ran standard fluids.
So, the conclusion is that switching to synthetic extends the life of existing transmissions, so starting out with a synthetic should do even better.

I know from my training with hydraulics that trans fluid is simply a high grade hydraulic fluid with specific wear/anti corrosion additives.

Being in an automotive system, this fluid has to be the most abused on the planet. Hydraulic fluids are designed to operate, stay clean and lubricate at a given operating range, and cars are too often run for 10 minutes...30...and then cooled again.The fluid has to be pressurized, cycled and filtered during a duty cycle. Hydraulic fluids do not have viscosity ranges like motor oils. There are different viscosity fluids but not multi-weight like a 15/50...So the hyd fluid operating range is smaller, usually in the hotter area where the normal engine operating temp is, hence trans cooler in the engine cooling system. A single wt fluid is expected to perform when cold or hot.

These short "cycles" shorten the life of the additives and the oil itself and nobody is as good as they'd like to be about changing their trans fluids. Keeping fresh fluid in the system is key since the transmission has no real resevoir. The only resevoir it has it what you see on the dipstick and that few square inch pan that only holds about 20% of the total fluid capacity. When fluid has no resevoir or when a system takes return oil (low pressure) and sends it directly back in the loop(hi-press), thats a closed loop system and those can be very hard on fluids. Resevoirs allow for cooling, better filtration, and superior moisture control. The big downside with automotive systems is the filtration on suction side which can starve the system if/when the fluid or the filter gets dirty, or even when cold. With such small shallow pans the filters can also suck air under certain conditions where the fluid is suddenly pulled out of the shallow pan faster than it can return. Although only momentary, it still causes cavitation and a spike in system pressure. Trans fluids are tested to their limits everyday in the average family car.. Synthetics just seem to out-perform the standard fluids. More durable, more stable, and more expensive.

Knowing what it cost to rebuild, and a 700r4 is considered to be an antique these days, I started using synthetic trans fluid a few yrs ago. Because its fully compatable with typical fluids, and exceeds dex-III requirements, There is no downside to using synthetics as far as I can see.

I may just go ahead and do the filter/fluid soon,just to get a look at whats in the pan and filter since running the synthetic.

Did'nt mean to write an essay, but after reading the fleet reports, I'm convinced that synthetic trans fluids are a great example of "pay me now or pay me later"..

 

[Marv02]

I also did some digging around Derxon 6 is full Syn.

I am going to use Walmart store brand I can but 3 gallons for $50.00

I also read All Dexron 6 have to meet the standered for this greade of ATF to be sold as Dexron 6 so why pay more for the name brand.

I sure like to drive my vett once again with the new motor and trans it been 6 months now.

I very close now.

 

[Pete K]

Disclaimer: The words typed below do not reference any specific brand of atf. It is not my intention to slander, or put myself in a position to be accused of slandering any product.

I have built hundreds of automatic transmissions. The majority of them are RWD GM builds - 700r4/4l60/4l60e/4l65e, etc. I have observed that the transmissions that used "high end" synthetics (again, no specific brand is being referenced) have suffered premature, unusual, unexplained hard parts failure. Every time I have opened one, and observed this type of damage, high end synthetic was in the box.
After private conversatons with other builders, they have noticed the same. This problem is not exclusive to the GM transmissions that come across my bench, but is common in all other makes as well.
I would not spend my money on them.
Back in the old days, when I was dirt poor, I filled my vette with Wal-Mart ATF. Ran my first 13 sec, 12 sec, 11 sec, and 10 sec ET's with Wal-Mart ATF in the sump. Is this a plug for Wal-Mart? Absolutely not.
I normally fill my own transmission with whatever atf is cheap, and easily available at the local store.
Take the above info any way you desire. It is not meant to sir a debate, but to share the facts (as I know them), based on 10+ years of building proven, performance street/strip/race transmissions.

 

[Marv02]

Thanks Pete K.
I going with the walmart brand ATF.

I went to Bob the oil guy web sie and did some digging for what I seen Walmart will do the same thing for less.

Disclaimer: The words typed below do not reference any specific brand of atf. It is not my intention to slander, or put myself in a position to be accused of slandering any product.

I have built hundreds of automatic transmissions. The majority of them are RWD GM builds - 700r4/4l60/4l60e/4l65e, etc. I have observed that the transmissions that used "high end" synthetics (again, no specific brand is being referenced) have suffered premature, unusual, unexplained hard parts failure. Every time I have opened one, and observed this type of damage, high end synthetic was in the box.
After private conversatons with other builders, they have noticed the same. This problem is not exclusive to the GM transmissions that come across my bench, but is common in all other makes as well.
I would not spend my money on them.
Back in the old days, when I was dirt poor, I filled my vette with Wal-Mart ATF. Ran my first 13 sec, 12 sec, 11 sec, and 10 sec ET's with Wal-Mart ATF in the sump. Is this a plug for Wal-Mart? Absolutely not.
I normally fill my own transmission with whatever atf is cheap, and easily available at the local store.
Take the above info any way you desire. It is not meant to sir a debate, but to share the facts (as I know them), based on 10+ years of building proven, performance street/strip/race transmissions.

 

[LLC5]

Disclaimer: The words typed below do not reference any specific brand of atf. It is not my intention to slander, or put myself in a position to be accused of slandering any product.

I have built hundreds of automatic transmissions. The majority of them are RWD GM builds - 700r4/4l60/4l60e/4l65e, etc. I have observed that the transmissions that used "high end" synthetics (again, no specific brand is being referenced) have suffered premature, unusual, unexplained hard parts failure. Every time I have opened one, and observed this type of damage, high end synthetic was in the box.
After private conversatons with other builders, they have noticed the same. This problem is not exclusive to the GM transmissions that come across my bench, but is common in all other makes as well.
I would not spend my money on them.
Back in the old days, when I was dirt poor, I filled my vette with Wal-Mart ATF. Ran my first 13 sec, 12 sec, 11 sec, and 10 sec ET's with Wal-Mart ATF in the sump. Is this a plug for Wal-Mart? Absolutely not.
I normally fill my own transmission with whatever atf is cheap, and easily available at the local store.
Take the above info any way you desire. It is not meant to sir a debate, but to share the facts (as I know them), based on 10+ years of building proven, performance street/strip/race transmissions.

I would think your experience might be related to customers filling with a synthetic fluid and then either using the transmission in a severe duty use, or using the synthetic fluid in a fatal attempt to limit/eliminate any further maintenence.

 

[Pete K]

I would think your experience might be related to customers filling with a synthetic fluid and then either using the transmission in a severe duty use, or using the synthetic fluid in a fatal attempt to limit/eliminate any further maintenence.

Incorrect.
Some of them were family, friends, or race buddy's that had a full history with my builds. On more than a few occasions, brand new (or very near new) vehicles were drained and refilled with high dollar "best for my baby" synthetics. After approx 50k miles (in the street driven vehicles) planetary gears were worn razor sharp. Rebuilding the unit with new planetaries and running typical off the shelf brands of fluid resulted in rebuilds that lived much longer than the factory build.
Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone. My experiences have convinced me.
I have seen similar failures in transfer cases, and differentials too. Soft parts live, hard parts fail.
Weird stuff.

 

[Marv02]

Dexron 6

So whats the skinny on Dexron 6 the stuff Walmart sells I think it Dexron 6 in the gallon jugs.

Incorrect.
Some of them were family, friends, or race buddy's that had a full history with my builds. On more than a few occasions, brand new (or very near new) vehicles were drained and refilled with high dollar "best for my baby" synthetics. After approx 50k miles (in the street driven vehicles) planetary gears were worn razor sharp. Rebuilding the unit with new planetaries and running typical off the shelf brands of fluid resulted in rebuilds that lived much longer than the factory build.
Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone. My experiences have convinced me.
I have seen similar failures in transfer cases, and differentials too. Soft parts live, hard parts fail.
Weird stuff.

 

[Pete K]

So whats the skinny on Dexron 6 the stuff Walmart sells I think it Dexron 6 in the gallon jugs.

I don't know. I don't spend time researching fluids. Most seem to be the same based on my teardowns.
Most guys I supply transmissions to do not inform me of what fluids they are running. I usually ask when they are apart, and I see something odd.

 

[boomdriver]

I would think your experience might be related to customers filling with a synthetic fluid and then either using the transmission in a severe duty use, or using the synthetic fluid in a fatal attempt to limit/eliminate any further maintenence.

I have to agree with the above theory.
I've seen it a thousand times, when some mechanical issue appears the owner makes an attempt to "fix" it by suddenly doing the maint, hoping that the grinding noise or the slipping will go away...

I've seen people with a seized engine that was run low on oil that would run to the store and buy 4 qts and pour it in. Are they trying to keep the shop from knowing what they did? or actually thinking that would fix it? I dunno.

All I do know is what documentation tells me. I trust fleet service stats and when a documented reduction in failures appears and the only thing different is the use of synthetic fluids, that gets noticed and it makes sense.

Hydraulic fluid is not magic but it is science. When a fluid has a better shear number, is more stable at temp extremes, and retains its basic properties longer, thats a superior performing fluid.

That being said, standard fluids have taken us this far and there is nothing wrong with them, nothing at all. The problems usually go back to the owner/driver failing to do the maint or abusing the machine and then blaming anything else. Misuse, abuse and poor maint are the cause of 99.9% of all mechanical failures. At best, the avg driver cannot tell you the last time they even checked the trans fluid level, much less when/if it needs changing.

BTW,
the Walmart price on Mobile-1 can;t be beat ! As low as $17 for 5 qts of 15-50 Thats a deal.
Thats where I grocery shop for my delco filters and oil. The trans fluid can be confusing because the different grades of dex are not intended for all makes and models. Read the labels carefully because some are specific to Chrysler, Ford or Toyota.

 

[LLC5]

Incorrect.
Some of them were family, friends, or race buddy's that had a full history with my builds. On more than a few occasions, brand new (or very near new) vehicles were drained and refilled with high dollar "best for my baby" synthetics. After approx 50k miles (in the street driven vehicles) planetary gears were worn razor sharp. Rebuilding the unit with new planetaries and running typical off the shelf brands of fluid resulted in rebuilds that lived much longer than the factory build.
Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone. My experiences have convinced me.
I have seen similar failures in transfer cases, and differentials too. Soft parts live, hard parts fail.
Weird stuff.

Ok, you ought to know as I am sure you have done more rebuilds than I have recently. We used to rebuild them, but now we have to ship our automatic transmissions in a box back to the manufacturer, and there can be up to a $1000.00 core charge if we open them up.

So you think that synthetic ATF fluids (any brand name) can shorten the lifespan of an automatic transmission?

 

[ddahlgren]

Disclaimer: The words typed below do not reference any specific brand of atf. It is not my intention to slander, or put myself in a position to be accused of slandering any product.

I have built hundreds of automatic transmissions. The majority of them are RWD GM builds - 700r4/4l60/4l60e/4l65e, etc. I have observed that the transmissions that used "high end" synthetics (again, no specific brand is being referenced) have suffered premature, unusual, unexplained hard parts failure. Every time I have opened one, and observed this type of damage, high end synthetic was in the box.
After private conversatons with other builders, they have noticed the same. This problem is not exclusive to the GM transmissions that come across my bench, but is common in all other makes as well.
I would not spend my money on them.
Back in the old days, when I was dirt poor, I filled my vette with Wal-Mart ATF. Ran my first 13 sec, 12 sec, 11 sec, and 10 sec ET's with Wal-Mart ATF in the sump. Is this a plug for Wal-Mart? Absolutely not.
I normally fill my own transmission with whatever atf is cheap, and easily available at the local store.
Take the above info any way you desire. It is not meant to sir a debate, but to share the facts (as I know them), based on 10+ years of building proven, performance street/strip/race transmissions.

Hi Pete we have chatted on another board and I started a thread there about Dexron VI vs. Dexron III that lead me here. My gut feeling is that with Dexron III a 700r4 has easily gone 150k miles with proper care so how bad can it be. My second thought was with a stock trans it was probably designed originally for the available fluids of the day and materials picked accodingly. It is a different story for another day but I ended up with a good deal of Dexron VI in my 91 700r4 and want to go back to the Dexron III the car seems ok just not the same and have no way to quantify that completely. Pete how do you feel about the method of flushing the trans by removing cooler lines pumpimg the pan out filling then running the engine until another 3 or 4 quarts come out refill and repeat until you go through around 3 1/2 or 4 gallons of oil?
Dave

 

[Hib Halverson]

Disclaimer: The words typed below do not reference any specific brand of atf. It is not my intention to slander, or put myself in a position to be accused of slandering any product.

I have built hundreds of automatic transmissions. The majority of them are RWD GM builds - 700r4/4l60/4l60e/4l65e, etc. I have observed that the transmissions that used "high end" synthetics (again, no specific brand is being referenced) have suffered premature, unusual, unexplained hard parts failure. Every time I have opened one, and observed this type of damage, high end synthetic was in the box.
After private conversatons with other builders, they have noticed the same. This problem is not exclusive to the GM transmissions that come across my bench, but is common in all other makes as well.
I would not spend my money on them.
Back in the old days, when I was dirt poor, I filled my vette with Wal-Mart ATF. Ran my first 13 sec, 12 sec, 11 sec, and 10 sec ET's with Wal-Mart ATF in the sump. Is this a plug for Wal-Mart? Absolutely not.
I normally fill my own transmission with whatever atf is cheap, and easily available at the local store.
Take the above info any way you desire. It is not meant to sir a debate, but to share the facts (as I know them), based on 10+ years of building proven, performance street/strip/race transmissions.

Pete K....in a case where the factory-fill ATF, manual trans lube or rear axle lube is synthetic, do you advocate changing to a "traditional" organic-base ATF or a petroleum-based GL4 or GL5 gear lube? If so, what brand of traditional ATF or gear lube is the best for replacement of a factory-fill synthetic?

Can you be more specific on "high-end" synthetics? How did you tell the trans had synthetic in it....by owner interview or by oil analysis?

Why are specific brands not being referenced?

What's the name of your trans shop? If you're not still in business today, when was the last time you were in business.

 

[speedmaster4]

What's the name of your trans shop? If you're not still in business today, when was the last time you were in business.

why do you ask ?

 

[Schrade]

I would think your experience might be related to customers filling with a synthetic fluid and then either using the transmission in a severe duty use, or using the synthetic fluid in a fatal attempt to limit/eliminate any further maintenence.

I think the efforts are a FUTILE attempt to eliminate REPAIR, where maintenance was probably never done in the first place...

THEN the higher end stuff gets a bad rap.

Some say that pre-oil change flush - like Gunk, eats seals. Horsefeathers. I used that stuff on my own fleet of delivery vehicles EVERY oil change, which I did myself, for 17 years (I used it only to speed up drainage - not for 'cleaning').

It doesn't 'eat' seals - it solves deposits that are plugging holes in the seals ALREADY THERE. Too late tho' - ignorant people hear it, and the rap spreads like wildfire.

 

[boomdriver]

I think the efforts are a FUTILE attempt to eliminate REPAIR, where maintenance was probably never done in the first place...

THEN the higher end stuff gets a bad rap.

Some say that pre-oil change flush - like Gunk, eats seals. Horsefeathers. I used that stuff on my own fleet of delivery vehicles EVERY oil change, which I did myself, for 17 years (I used it only to speed up drainage - not for 'cleaning').

It doesn't 'eat' seals - it solves deposits that are plugging holes in the seals ALREADY THERE. Too late tho' - ignorant people hear it, and the rap spreads like wildfire.

I am inclined to agree...
Ignorance stands right behind apathy.

I've known people that truely believed that once Mobile-1 was used, you never changed it.....only added if/when the level got low.

Others walked around saying that synthetics did not burn, thus your motor would quit using oil if it was worn out and needed rings....and the belief that a noisey tranny or one thats shifts softly or incorrectly will be "cured" by the addition of synthetics. So when the thing finally fails with sharpened hard edges and other hard part failures from running low fluid or old fluid, the new stuff gets the blame. Same as the DexCool myth. I've been using Dex in my alum head iron block since it came out and have yet to see ANYTHING gummed up or gel form inside the system....then again, I was'nt so stupid as to add Dex to a cooling system that still had 1/2 a gal of green in it.....

I used to fear that stupidity was contageous. Thank God its not, 'cause I've been over exposed.

 

[Pete K]

Pete K....in a case where the factory-fill ATF, manual trans lube or rear axle lube is synthetic, do you advocate changing to a "traditional" organic-base ATF or a petroleum-based GL4 or GL5 gear lube? If so, what brand of traditional ATF or gear lube is the best for replacement of a factory-fill synthetic?

Can you be more specific on "high-end" synthetics? How did you tell the trans had synthetic in it....by owner interview or by oil analysis?

Why are specific brands not being referenced?

What's the name of your trans shop? If you're not still in business today, when was the last time you were in business.

In my own car, I would advocate changing the fluid.
I have no right to push this opinion on others.


I can be more specific on brands, but I will not.
One may interpret my post as slanderous, and that is not my intention.
If you were standing in my shop, I would show the collection of "odd" failures.
I have witnessed 2 forum members be threatened with legal action for making comments about specific products (not on this board, or even transmission/rear end related parts).

I have moved to the technical/manufacturing side of my business, so I am no longer a full time builder (for about 3 years now). I do manage to build a dozen or more a year, because I enjoy it.

 

[Pete K]

why do you ask ?

Yeah? Why do you ask?
Regardless of name, location or track record, why does my opinion require justification?

Besides, this is the internet. Be are who we say we are, right

 

[Pete K]

I am inclined to agree...
Ignorance stands right behind apathy.

I've known people that truely believed that once Mobile-1 was used, you never changed it.....only added if/when the level got low.

Others walked around saying that synthetics did not burn, thus your motor would quit using oil if it was worn out and needed rings....and the belief that a noisey tranny or one thats shifts softly or incorrectly will be "cured" by the addition of synthetics. So when the thing finally fails with sharpened hard edges and other hard part failures from running low fluid or old fluid, the new stuff gets the blame. Same as the DexCool myth. I've been using Dex in my alum head iron block since it came out and have yet to see ANYTHING gummed up or gel form inside the system....then again, I was'nt so stupid as to add Dex to a cooling system that still had 1/2 a gal of green in it.....

I used to fear that stupidity was contageous. Thank God its not, 'cause I've been over exposed.

All, very true.
If I had a dollar for every time someone told me that changing their trans fluid made it blow up, I could vacation in Hawaii.

They always fail to mention that they could have:

Compromised the filter o-ring
Under filled
Over filled
Blocked the servo dump hole with sealant
Never changed the fluid or filter in the 200,000+ miles they spent towing their boat.
Etc, etc

 

[Pete K]

Hi Pete we have chatted on another board and I started a thread there about Dexron VI vs. Dexron III that lead me here. My gut feeling is that with Dexron III a 700r4 has easily gone 150k miles with proper care so how bad can it be. My second thought was with a stock trans it was probably designed originally for the available fluids of the day and materials picked accodingly. It is a different story for another day but I ended up with a good deal of Dexron VI in my 91 700r4 and want to go back to the Dexron III the car seems ok just not the same and have no way to quantify that completely. Pete how do you feel about the method of flushing the trans by removing cooler lines pumpimg the pan out filling then running the engine until another 3 or 4 quarts come out refill and repeat until you go through around 3 1/2 or 4 gallons of oil?
Dave

Dave,
Sorry for the very late reply. I do not log in as much as I would like to.
I am NOT a fan of running the pump dry.
4l60's as well as 200r4's have a delicate pump. They are a paddle vane set up, and are very delicate, compared to a gear pump.
Although others have had much success doing it that way, I would NEVER take a chance.

I don't have a close up pic of a single vane, but their edges are slightly convex. When they wear, they knock the tip off of them, and the pump is hurt.

It has always been my preference to drop the pan multiple times to clean the fluid by dilution.