another example of the NCRS/eBay effect on parts

[midyear]

Take a look at this eBay auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4510238499&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
$2k+ for a trim tag!! IMHO This is a result of the NCRS nit-picking repop trim tags. I am willing to bet this tag is for a "top flite" car. Its one that is being built, or one that has already been turned down due to a repop tag. A few years back this piece of tin was not worth $20, now with the NCRS focus on trim tags, just look what it brought. :eyerole

 

[Sting Ray]

Dennis,

Thanks for posting that, I noticed it when it came on and forgot about it.


Tom

 

[magicv8]

It's a double edged sword. It cuts both ways.

NCRS is a club with a lot of player$. If you want to play, they want to make sure you pay the admi$$ion. The same thing is happening with engine pads. Now that all the old/original members have put their cars with restored engines through judging, they are starting to use a photo album to pick off engine pads that don't match the look of the photos of the pads that came before and after them. I love to see the results of rejudging all the pads on cars that have passed judgement over the years.

For newbies, it is an uphill battle. Most of the easily restored cars have been restored. Restoration and judging of cars that have to be pieced together forces the bidding on ebay higher, but at least the parts are finding a home. That means we will have a continuing supply of great re$toration$ for the near future. It keeps the repop parts coming, and keeps the value of ALL Corvettes higher.

 

[Tyler Townsley]

NCRS is a club with a lot of player$.

NCRS has had the verification of originality thrust upon its judging system by its members to protect their cars from being misrepresented by clone makers. This has come about because of the willingness of some to falsify the pedigree of a car in order to justify selling for big dollars. As with anything the judging has evolved to account for the false 'this is original' assertations made by owners/builders. You cannot have it both ways. You are right the cost of this certifyable originallity is expensive but what do you expect? Without the benefit of build sheets for the C1-C3 cars its the integrity of the judging system that keeps the thieves honest. You want to counterfit a block/trim tag you beter be good or you get a correct trim tag and build a car to match. The NCRS process only verfies the car represents what would have been on sale in the showroom. You do not clone a Corvette you build a driver or you build exactly what would have been on the showroom floor. You want a cheap old car buy a Vega.

Tyler

 

[LT4man]

Tyler, you are absolutely correct. What makes our hobby great now IMHO, is the fact that we can choose what part of the hobby we want to participate in. I have always enjoyed putting cars together. I never really thought about what was correct or not correct. I put things together that I wanted and enjoyed. No matter how correct one's car is, you still need to find a buyer if you are looking to make money off your efforts. The buyers are getting smarter. The buyers are the ones that drive any market: cars, real estate, products, services. I have been working with cars since 1969. I have never been profit driven when working on my own. I just enjoy cars.

 

[midyear]

its the integrity of the judging system that keeps the thieves honest. You want to counterfit a block/trim tag you beter be good or you get a correct trim tag and build a car to match. The NCRS process only verfies the car represents what would have been on sale in the showroom. You do not clone a Corvette you build a driver or you build exactly what would have been on the showroom floor.

Tyler

Tyler,

So then, help me to understand, whats more correct?

1)building a car from a trim tag?

2)or an orig car? lets say a recovered theft, or one that some paint & body bubba removed while painting, thats now missing the trim tag?

According to the NCRS, build it from a tag, the other car is worthless (heard it from Al Grenning's mouth)

One more thing, how do you keep a "thief honest" :confused ??? by making him spend more money?? It reminds me of a saying I heard long ago: "A lock is to keep an honest man honest, it will never stop a thief."

Dennis

 

[Willis76]

.................. You want a cheap old car buy a Vega.

Tyler

:duh
Some of us 76 owners have a piece of that old Vega as a stock part

 

[motorman]

Take a look at this eBay auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4510238499&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
$2k+ for a trim tag!! IMHO This is a result of the NCRS nit-picking repop trim tags. I am willing to bet this tag is for a "top flite" car. Its one that is being built, or one that has already been turned down due to a repop tag. A few years back this piece of tin was not worth $20, now with the NCRS focus on trim tags, just look what it brought. :eyerole

wait till this tag along with a corvette shows up at BJ and some drunken bidders with more money than brains will buy to put in their collection.

 

[Tyler Townsley]

>So then, help me to understand, whats more correct?

>1)building a car from a trim tag?
**************************************************
In our hobby 'correct' has come to mean a level of correctness that precludes you from assurting its so as being proof it was. Its all about provenance and lacking a build sheet that affirms what is present on the car is original then trim tag must now shoulder that task. If it is not there/wrong then it should not demand a preimum as a 'correct' car. If the seller is representing the car as correct then in the Corvette hobby that means as it was on the showroom floor and lacking a build sheet the trim tag becomes its provenance.
**************************************************

2)or an orig car? lets say a recovered theft, or one that some paint & body bubba removed while painting, thats now missing the trim tag?

If the buyer is demanding a 'correct' car then having someone say its correct just might not be enough. I have a 68 L 88, at least thats what the seller said as it has an L 88 hood and the engine has the correct parts. I Did not and would not pay that price as he could not document it. Did you buy your L 88 based on someones word and pay the preimum or did you make an L 88 and now want some way to inflate its provenance so you can get the preimum.

**************************************************
According to the NCRS, build it from a tag, the other car is worthless (heard it from Al Grenning's mouth)

Worthless is up to the market to determine, NCRS is concerned with correctness and lacking build sheets it has the done the best it can to keep its members from being duped over semantics.

***************************************************
One more thing, how do you keep a "thief honest" :confused ??? by making him spend more money?? It reminds me of a saying I heard long ago: "A lock is to keep an honest man honest, it will never stop a thief."

A thief would be willing to misrepresent the car and everything on it as original even when it is not. The NCRS judging system forces him to make it right or represent it for what it is.

****************************************************
The hobby has a place for original cars, reconstructed cars and drivers but lets not confuse the newcomer/uninformed buyer with symentics. If you, an informed buyer, want to buy a car lacking a trim tag for full price then that is fine but buying a car without a trim tag then asserting it is as built without documentation is not what NCRS is about. If you want to do that then use Bloomington.

NCRS is a club and part of its mission is to have in place a method to examine a 53-89 corvette to asertain if that particular car is as it was sold at the dealership. You would have it dilute that integrety just to meet your criteria, I am not sure the membership would agree with you. Buts thats just my opinion and all I have to say on the subject.

Tyler

 

[studiog]

:duh
Some of us 76 owners have a piece of that old Vega as a stock part

I always liked that steeing wheel though!

 

[ThomC]

Bravo!

A spirited, thought provoking discussion on a controversial topic. We all have our opinions around this subject for sure. Tyler and Dennis, your points are both well made. Reminds me of the old saying...

"Good judgement comes from experience,
experience comes from poor judgement."

Thom

 

[midyear]

A spirited, thought provoking discussion on a controversial topic. We all have our opinions around this subject for sure. Tyler and Dennis, your points are both well made. Reminds me of the old saying...

"Good judgement comes from experience,
experience comes from poor judgement."

Thom

Thom,

Good quote. Tyler, I understand your point as well as I am an NCRS member and have judged 67's in the past. I have my driver and I have my show car. I just think some of this focus is misdirected. Can I tell a good repop tag from an orig?? No, I dont think so, I am looking at 2 right now for a 65, one I know is a repop, the other the orig from the car and I cant tell the difference (color change for a customer, changing tag by thier request) I do know that if I magnify each one, that the repop is a better made tag without the defects of the orig. I understand the desire of the NCRS to do it right, but big block clones are always going to be there. All I see happening from this is a better made repop trim tag, still worth only $200, not $2000. I am glad to see that Roy Sinor has taken notice of this tag and I am sure it will be noted when it appears for flite judging. But, the bottom line is the focus on trim tags has made more then one person want to pay outrageous prices for an orig tag. I have several good ones in my collection (red/red leather 67 s bodied optioned roadster, marina blue/blue 67 s bodied roadster, and a few green ones as well) I may see if I cant get 1/2 that price for some of mine. Hell, I would just about drill one off of any one of my cars for $2K!!

 

[Sting Ray]

I'll take the black one Dennis

Tyler,

With the new book on trim tags whom does this help/hurt? Lets see it hurts the people who bought a car that was restored a couple of owners ago and bought the car thinking it had an original trim tag, the couple of guys who actually repop them. Who does this help Al. G, the people that are going to make a Black/red or red/red '67 will just get a better repo tag, or take one off another car. There was a disscussion in the last couple of months on the NCRS board about this, why is the trim tag the only piece on the car that can't be changed, you can restamp the motor, change the motor, and everything else why is this tag so sacred.

JMHO,

Tom M

 

[magicv8]

66stingray - I agree with you . You can restore any part except the vin tag (that's illegal) - and as long as it appears as originally delivered, it will pass flite judging (and to my knowlege, many have).


Tyler - the word "driver" is a term that in automotive context and correct English usage describes the occupant of the car seat with the steering wheel before it. NCRS people use it in a derogatory sense, and it is resented by many. Please try to contain your disdain and at the same time use good grammar.

 

[1964*Coupe]

66stingray - I agree with you . You can restore any part except the vin tag (that's illegal) - and as long as it appears as originally delivered, it will pass flite judging (and to my knowlege, many have).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am told that different States have different rules (It kind of reminds me of Slot Machines) about VIN tags. Are you saying it is illegal nation wide? Just curious...

 

[midyear]

I'll take the black one Dennis

Wow, some how I figured you would want the red tag

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am told that different States have different rules (It kind of reminds me of Slot Machines) about VIN tags. Are you saying it is illegal nation wide? Just curious...

The laws are funny about vin tags, but in most all states it is illegal to alter the vin in order to conceal the identity of a motor vehicle.

In the pontiac/GTO world where paperwork is available, the only thing that matters is a vin and that PHS paperwork. Does not matter if its a repop cowl tag, does not matter if its a restamped block, as long as it matches up with the PHS paperwork. I know for a fact it is common practice to do a "radiator cap restoration" (definition: remove radiator cap from orig car, drive up new car, replace radiator cap) on some of these high end cars (judges are a great example). Many are built from a Lemans body with a transplanted GTO vin. since this is restoration, the interpretation of the law is that the car is being restored around the VIN number, and the vin number may be the only "orig" part even left to the car.

Some of the big northern corvette dealers I can assume do the same thing. At carlisle this year was a red 67 435 roadster I did panel replacement (removed flares) and bodywork to a few years back. It was a big block clone built from a 350hp small block car. At the time I worked on it the vin was 105537, This car was passed off by the owner as a real BB car, he was discovered and controversy arose. The car was sold to a northern dealer. This year I saw at it in Carlisle (auction) the car now sported a new vin (i believe it was 101315 but will need to check my notes) It has wandered through several high end dealers and been on ebay at least once (sold only to show up at another dealer, looks like shill bidding to me!) It is a beautifully built car, but it is a clone, and now re-vin'd to boot. I am confident it will sell and some years down the road the paper trail will go dry and no one will remember (but me). At the time I saw this car, A few of my buddies (Tom M is one) said how do you know this is the car?? I knew and pointed out a few things only a restorer or a "parent" could know, each car I work on is like one of my kids.

Dennis

 

[Sting Ray]

Dennis,

And to boot about the auction car, you forgot to add it was for sale 2 years ago in the corral, not quite done. That is who gets the shaft on this car, not the builders with the fake tag, the guy 5 owners down the road. Nothing will ever come back on the person that actually made the switch, it is the poor shmuck down the line, who gets jaded to the car hobby on his first time out when he finds his $135K car is only worth $50K.


Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

And we all pray for the day when the St. Louis production records will somehow be found in a dark corner within GM someplace. What a bunch of unhappy campers that would make.

Speaking of GTOs, a junk/project car dealer close to me had a '65 post coupe for sell all last summer before someone finally bought it. It was pretty stripped out and had some rust but the specific GTO interior parts were there as well as the outside body emblems. It had a Lemans front clip on it and he had some other parts off the car stored inside. I told several people that this car was a steal as it had the original GTO VIN plate and a valid IL title .

Asking price was $1500.

Tom

 

[Viking427]

A couple points as I see them;

The laws are funny about vin tags, but in most all states it is illegal to alter the vin in order to conceal the identity of a motor vehicle

..so when did the NCRS suddenly become the FBI ??? ..if so, exactly how does the NCRS determine which car is presently on the Feds stolen car list, attempting to conceal its identity and thus banned from judging -vs- a car where the painter tossed the tags, or a recovered theft thats since been inspected by the police and subsequently VIN tag reissued through them ? IMO the NCRS has some serious "catching up with the times" to do in this area. Virtually every state now has an inspection process in place to facilitate the reattachment of "original GM style" reproduction VIN tags (ie. Backeast tags etc.) to a car once that cars been cleared through the proper authorities. Yet, the NCRS to this day still only allow a) the original VIN tag, or b) a state issued one.

Repro trim tags have been passing through the pearly gates of NCRS judging fields for at least 20 some years (until the recent epidemic of Grenning'itis), why are we still discriminating b/n VINs, trims, paint, tires, rechromed this, replated that - they're all merely designed to respectfully imitate (as close as possible) what appeared on the showroom floor 40+ years ago - which is the prime directive of the NCRS, is it not ??? I say allow them all on the judging field, assign them all 1000 point correctness initially, then begin deductions accordingly, letting the chips fall where they may. Originals will likely score highest, and good repro's will score better than bad repro's. As long as the point spread b/n the different styles isn't rediculous, everyone wins. Al's new book will serve only to make the repro trim tags better ( I think I hear the repro houses retooling as I type). Al's been quietly gathering a substantial stash of engine pad tracings over the years too, so I'm guessing that'll be his next best seller and the next hoopla. No matter, every car should be allowed equal time on the field.

The underlying problem and root of all evil here is allowing a cars NCRS judging credentials to completely dictate its resale value ..things get muddy fast. May be unrealistic, but I say seperate them like church & state, oil & water ..at least until GM's production records are found in Jimmy Hoffa's pocket

 

[motorman]

if there were GM prodution records for early corvettes there would be a lot of people in the unemployment lines.