Argument for a cheaper Vette?

[LongTimer]

Fellow C6 trackers, please forgive this diversion;
The new GTO is built on old Opel Omega/Catera/Holden Comodore platform. The Holden engineers had, without a budget, spent weekends modifying this platform into a 2 door coupe that could accept a small block V8. When Lutz saw and drove the car, he saw an opportunity for a quick adaptation to US specs and for Pontiac to have a performance car to fill the hole in the lineup caused by the cancellation of the Firebird much earlier than anticipated. Because the Comodore is scheduled to move to the new CTS Platform (sigma?), this GTO is probably a short lived body style. The critics should recognize that this car was not designed to be a GTO, and should be glad that a good performance car is available to them right now. Besides, I remember when a "real" GTO was availble as a station wagon ('70s).

So, no, the F-body replacements won't built on this GTO platform, but the Camaro replacement probably will come from the new sigma(?) platform (I think the Firebird is dead). Though it is a solid platform, I think it is too big and heavy for the mission that will be assigned to the Camaro replacement.

 

[TomOB]

I hadn't seen the GTO until just now.
Wow. what a waste of the GTO name. It just looks like any old car. nothing special to me to justify the price, i would buy a used transam convertible.
I never saw GTos when they were popular, but my dad always talks about how great, cool and fast they were. this, well, this looks like a mazda 6 to me.

 

[LongTimer]

OK. So anyway, the Vette can't be a world beater state of the art machine and be "affordable to the common man" at the same time. The missions confict. As a manufacturer Porsche learned this long ago and has tried several times to offer a lower cost "entry" car to "feed" buyers into their more expensive cars; i.e. 914, 924, botoxer.

Would we, as vette fanatics, rather give up the idea of an affordable ($30s) vette and reestablish the Camaro / Vette relationship, or expand the vette to two separate models?

 

[Rob]

OK. So anyway, the Vette can't be a world beater state of the art machine and be "affordable to the common man" at the same time. The missions confict. As a manufacturer Porsche learned this long ago and has tried several times to offer a lower cost "entry" car to "feed" buyers into their more expensive cars; i.e. 914, 924, botoxer.

Would we, as vette fanatics, rather give up the idea of an affordable ($30s) vette and reestablish the Camaro / Vette relationship, or expand the vette to two separate models?

Actually.....this an interesting point that I hadn't originally considered.

I believe that within the Porsche community, some enthusiasts, don't consider the lower cost Porsches to be thoroughbreds such as the 944. Wasn't the engine for the 944 and a couple other lower priced Porsche's built by VW?

 

[LongTimer]

I believe that within the Porsche community, some enthusiasts, don't consider the lower cost Porsches to be thoroughbreds such as the 944. Wasn't the engine for the 944 and a couple other lower priced Porsche's built by VW?

Both the 914/916 and the 924/944/9?? models used VW based engines that received various degrees of modification.

In that perspective, the Camaro has always been more Corvette than those models of Porsches have been 911.

 

[Senna1994]

Rob although the 924 used a VW/Audi based engine. The latter 944/968 models used basically a half 928 engine. The 914 was sold a VW as well in Europe. I personally don't think that the C6 Coupe will be higher than $50k. Perhaps a loaded convertible will be closer to $60k but GM is getting into dangerous ground by doing that. The best example is the Price Cuts on the 03 models here in California.

 

[LongTimer]

The latter 944/968 models used basically a half 928 engine. [/B]

Thanks for the correction. My porsche knowledge is accumulated mostly thru juxtaposition osmossis.

 

[Rob]

Thanks for the correction. My porsche knowledge is accumulated mostly thru juxtaposition osmossis.

Yep, same here.

 

[Edmond]

OK. So anyway, the Vette can't be a world beater state of the art machine and be "affordable to the common man" at the same time. The missions confict. As a manufacturer Porsche learned this long ago and has tried several times to offer a lower cost "entry" car to "feed" buyers into their more expensive cars; i.e. 914, 924, botoxer.

Would we, as vette fanatics, rather give up the idea of an affordable ($30s) vette and reestablish the Camaro / Vette relationship, or expand the vette to two separate models?

You're totally right about that. But I think models like the Z06 and ZR1 come very close, they're certainly "supercars" my American sportscar standards. I think the Corvette, along with the Viper, can hang on the world stage and play with the big boys.

Everything is about compromise. If they give you that much more power and performance, maybe the comfort will go down. If they gave you performance and comfort, the price would go up. I think Corvette has managed to attain that compromise that no other car in the world can.

 

[LongTimer]

Edmund,

You avoided my question - reestablish the Camaro / Vette relationship or offer the vette in two models?

 

[Edmond]

Edmund,

You avoided my question - reestablish the Camaro / Vette relationship or offer the vette in two models?

Sorry Longtimer,

I would re-establish the F-body line. I personally think that having 2 Corvette models isn't cool. I know that we've made a lot of references to Porsche. But Porsche is the brand name, not the model. An F-body would always be a GM, so that's different.

I thought GM tried a half-@$$ed attempt with the F-bodies by putting Vette' engines in them. Let's face it, a great engine alone can't sell cars.

I'm open to all the ideas that they have. If Corvette were to have two models, I like the standard model and a higher performing model. But we have to take cost into account as well.

I swear that if GM gave the C5R block as an RPO, a lot of people would check that box. They're selling that block as a crate motor. So why can't they put that block in and beef up the chassis? Yes, it would be a costly thing to do, but people will pay for performance, ie. ZR1 and Z06.

 

[LongTimer]

Thanks for your opinion, Edmund.

 

[LongTimer]

WOW. I hope they were as carefull with the rest of the Monaro adapatation to the American Market. A shame it is so heavy. I don't think the 340HP will deliver deliver original GTO acceleration, but my bet is that it will out perform the original in all other categories.

So is the GTO the new Mustang competitor. No. My understanding is that the GTO will be Ponitac's SSR; a limited production showroom draw- and not cheap either. Unless things change soon, we will wait for the Camaro replacement to properly trounce the lowly rustang.

 

[LongTimer]

Oh, another deviation from C6 stuff.

Anyone miss the El Camino SS? More from out freinds down under - same platform. No more - I promise. How do I make these smaller?

 

[bbw]

Why is GM reusing so many old model names (like Malibu, Impala, GTO, etc.)? Will we be getting a new Nova soon? Seriously, though, are they just running out of ideas for names? I mean, there is nothing, I mean nothing, about the new GTO that is reminiscent of its elder counterpart.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

My guess is that GM is recycling so many old names for the simple reason that most of their new cars with new names have been such washouts. So, they've started re-using the names like "malibu", "impala" etc. to rekindle the image of cars which were a success and had a certain panache. The weirdest thing is when you see an old GM car that you weren't particularly a fan of when it was new, and now it looks great. For example, I was never a big fan of the 1965 Impala, but I saw an orange SS 396 convertible recently and it looked marvelous! I have to agree that, performance aside, the new GTO looks like a posterboy for Hertz and Avis' "midsize weekend special". Bob Lutz has so far talked a good game but his cars don't show it.


--Chris Kennedy

 

[LongTimer]

I think it's a little early to flame Lutz on GM's lineup. There are no all new cars sold today that he had anything to do with. He did have minimal input on the remodeled Grand Prix and he killed the Axtek quickly.

We should begin to see his impact in the next 1-2 years. I read somewhere that the Solstice is now "on" for production so it will be interesting to see how true to the showcar, the production version is.