Baby at the mechanics

[BarryK]

Paul
bolt-on KO's were what I was planning on.

 

[cfalson]

Barry,
It's easy to check for the correct balancer on a mid-year, the key and TDC are in line with those lined up the tab should be at 0 degrees.
Charlief
66 Coupe

 

[BarryK]

are there any numbers on the balancer that would tell me if it's the correct one or not besides the tab lining up at 0 degrees

 

[Vette66AirCoupe]

Barry, He doesn't have to replace the balancer to figure out if the timing mark is in the wrong place. And even if by some chance it was in the wrong place he could just put a new TDC mark on the balancer that is on there to verify he is correct before installing new parts.

Nailed it! That's exactly what happened with my '66 big block. I think the outer ring of my HB has spun a bit so my TDC mark is now a black line applied via Sharpie. This winter I'm going to replace it so I don't have to worry about it spinnng anymore.

 

[BarryK]

Studiog and Terry

I do understand if the HB slipped a new mark can be made and correct timing set, but he is saying it's actually the wrong balancer for that motor. I donn't know if it is or not. The motor was rebuilt before I bought the car and since I didn't have the work done myself I have no clue what they did at the time.

 

[youwish2bme]

Why does he say it's the wrong one? I have a 350 balancer on mine and it works fine. It's not correct but hey it works and it's not bubba.... Dave..

 

[BarryK]

Dave
that i don't know. he said after the timing numbers were off by so much he looked at the balancer and just told me it was the wrong one for that motor and therefore the reason everything must be off.
If it is the wrong one, can a new mark be made the same as if the correct one was on there but had slipped?
D*mn, this is why it's time I learned how to do this stuff myself - I have no clue when a mechanic tells me something if it's legit or if I'm getting BS'ed.

 

[youwish2bme]

I say let them finish what they have started. Don't let them adjust the timing b/c you've said it sounds fine and runs fine. Pay your hundred into Lars for when he comes to Jersey and have him look at it. Or one of the many forum members near you that do know cars, Doesn't John L, Dennis and Mark live relatively close to you? Ask, Bribe, Beg to have one of them look at it... I would do that before I let one of the "mechanics" change the balancer at a cost to you.. This could be a very simple fix... If the balancer has slipped just find the new TDC point for now. Check the timing if it has indeed slipped. Any "mechanic" should be able to find TDC and mark the balancer. Just went and looked still looks like space on the NJ Lars event.... Dave.

 

[BarryK]

Dave
i'd LOVE to have Lar's work on my car but was informed that all the spots were filled for his trip. I know that Mark or John L could most likely very easily do my car correct but now isn't the time to ask Mark as he is working as hard as he can just to get his own car done before Carlisle - - maybe I can bride John L though
The idea of changing out the balancer has bothered me since he mentioned it on Fri morning and everything everyone on here has said confirms my uneasiness about it.
I'll stop by there first thing tomorrow morning and tell him to leave the current one in and see if he can just find proper TDC and remark it to set the timing. As you said, the car does feel to run decently, my biggest complain is the lack of low end power but I suppose that's really just the way the 365 motor is with that camshaft which doesn't really kick in until about 3500rpm. Even this mechanic said when he test drove the car that it was running pretty damn good and the low end torque being fairly weak is just normal for this motor. This being my first Vette and my first 327 motor maybe I was just expecting too much out of it realistically. At around 3500 it will push you back in the seat pretty good and it revs easily and strongly all the way to redline and beyond. Last week when I had it out for a spin I have having a bit of fun and got a little carried away winding her out and next thing I know I was at 7000rpm and she was still pulling. Luckily for the motor I don't do that very often.

If all else fails, maybe I can bride with cold brews a few forum members to check and time the car while I'm at Carlisle. At least I'd know I wasn't getting BS'ed by the forum members and I'd swear that most of you guys know more than most of these mechanics out there.

BTW, if you know something about Lar's trip to NJ that shows an opening when I was told differently let me know!!!

 

[youwish2bme]

Go to the C3 section in the other place and I saw it on the second page in General that only four or so people were locked in.. Check it out.. However I forgot that you were going to Carlisle just get one of the forum guys to check it out for you.. Dave..

 

[paul67]

Even if the balancer has slipped, do you not just get compression stroke on #1 with the distributor rotor tip pointing to #1 on the distributor cap, and then magic mark TDC on the damaged balancer? Then go from there using the degree increment plate with the new base mark?

 

[cfalson]

8" balancers are used on many chevy engines, the snout is almost universal but depending upon vintage the timing marked moves, I don't remember what years, but all SB through 68 had the key and the timing mark in line. The timing cover also must be looked at to see if it is correct, or you are off again.
Easiest way is to pull the left sided valve cover and distrubitor, using a starter button bump the engine until cylinder #1 is TDC, both intake and exhust are relaxed, the rotor is pointing to #1 plug (remember every 45 degrees you go to the next cylinder) check where things are. The balancer can be pulled easily with the pullies removed, fan removed and associated belts.
Good Luck,
Charlief
66 Coupe

 

[Vette66AirCoupe]

Dave
that i don't know. he said after the timing numbers were off by so much he looked at the balancer and just told me it was the wrong one for that motor and therefore the reason everything must be off.
If it is the wrong one, can a new mark be made the same as if the correct one was on there but had slipped?
D*mn, this is why it's time I learned how to do this stuff myself - I have no clue when a mechanic tells me something if it's legit or if I'm getting BS'ed.

Barry,
The fact is that no matter what balancer is on it, they are all discs that turn 360 degrees before they return to the same spot again. When the #1 cylinder is at top dead center on the intake stroke the line on the balancer should line up with the zero on the scale that is attached to your timing chain cover on the front of the motor. You can see this scale by looking down from the drivers side of the motor. Your mechanic should be able to accomlish getting #1 to TDC. If the line which is cut in your balancer is not lined up with the zero on the scale he can simply draw a line across the balancer that DOES line up with the zero on the scale. The timing light, aimed at the aforementioned scale, will freeze the line on the balaner so that it appears motionless. He will disconnect and plug the vaccuum line that runs to your distributor's vaccuum advance unit and he should also set the dwell on your points and then make sure that the RPM's are at the specified level at idle before changing anything. He'll loosen a bolt at the base of the distributor and as he rotates the distributor and watches the balancer and the scale the line on the balancer will move up or down the scale to the desired position. I don't have specs for your engine but I'd guess your timing (this is referred to as INITIAL timing) will be set so that the spark plugs will fire somewhere between 6-10 degrees before the piston is at top dead center (BTDC). Of course once your vaccuum advance unit is plugged back in the timing will probably advance another 15 or 16 degrees (guessing here, no specs). When the spark occurs before TDC it is referred to as advanced timing, if it occurs after TDC it is called retraded timing.

OK, so your car is running good which doesn't point to a problem with the balancer or the timing, at least as far as the ignition is concerned. BUT.....if he needs to put a new mark on the balancer that's a temporary fix in my opinion. You need to know what the balancer does. It's really a vibration damper. It helps control twisting of your crankshaft from torsional forces that can result in cracks over time. Dampers usually fail because they are literally coming apart. The balancer is actually two parts. There is a hub which is attached to your crankshaft and an outer ring which is heavy iron. Between them is sandwiched a layer of flexible rubber. This rubber absorbs a lot of vibration. It also breaks down over time as it is living behind the hot radiator and attached to a hot crankshaft while spinning at, what did you say, 7,000 RPM's? The typical reason the mark on the balancer moves is that the outer ring is moving on the hub. That is to say, the balancer is nearing the end of it's useful life. So I said all of that to say this. If the guy has the reputation you have indicated, let him change the harmonic balancer and be done with it. Just get some assurance that it will indeed be replaced with the factory spec part and that he will set that timing mark on TDC before he resets your timing. It should run just as good or better than when you gave it to him when he is done.

Not to give you nightmares, but if the rubber comes out of your balancer all together, and I have actually seen such a case, it's quite a mess. The hub keeps spinning on the crankshaft and the ring just gets tossed about which usually means it destroys your pulleys, belts or timing chain cover. UGGGGGLY......but thankfully very rare.

One more thing Barry. If you are serious about learning to work on your own car, check out the courses offered at Delaware Technical and Community College. You might find something you like.

 

[BarryK]

Charlie
that's for the info, I'll be sure to keep it for reference

 

[BarryK]

Terry
WOW! that was a great explanation, thank you! That helps a lot as I really had no clue what the harmonic balancer did. I've heard of balancers slipping but really never understood how or why but with your explanation it makes a lot more sense.

It should run just as good or better than when you gave it to him when he is done.

That is EXACTLY what he told me last week. He said that while she is running pretty good now I'll be very happy about how she is running when he is finished.

I was going to go this morning and tell him to just remark the TDC mark if the HB slipped but now after your detailed explanation that I think you may be correct in just letting him replace it with the proper balancer so I don't have to be concerned with it coming apart on me plus it will take all question away of if it is or isn't the right part.

thanks for the info on Del. Tech. & Com. college. I'll definately look into it and perhaps there is a course or two I can pick up over the winter so maybe by next spring I can at least do basic repairs and maintanance on my car and not be so dependent on mechanics for even the smallest things plus not have to ask the basic and dumb questions on here.

Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed explanation.

See on at the meeting on Tuesday.

 

[JohnZ]

If he determines that the balancer has failed/slipped and replaces it, the 8" replacement is still available from GM (and Paragon - they have the GM part), BUT the replacement doesn't have the internal "fins" the original part has. Functionally, the fins don't matter, but the old balancer (assuming it has the fins on the back side - see photo below) is VERY rare and valuable, is long-since discontinued by GM, isn't reproduced, and can be rebuilt - do NOT let it out of your sight, and make sure you get the old one back! Note in the photo that the timing index line on the outer ring is directly in line with the keyway in the hub bore; all Corvettes were like that through the mid-70's, but passenger car balancers changed in 1969 when the index line was moved 9* counter-clockwise (along with the tab on the timing cover, to match).

 

[BarryK]

John
thanks for the info on the balancer.
He siad the one that was already on the motor wasn't the correct one which means it must have been replaced already.
Also, he has to replace the regulator OR have the alternator rebuilt (still checking thru the system) as he isn't getting any voltage output out of it at all.
I stopped by this morning and already told him that any parts he replaces to be sure to keep for me to pick up with the car as I want to keep them. If he does replace the balancer I'll be able to look at the old one and see it it really does have the fins or not. If it does (but I suspect not) I'll send it out at some point to be rebuilt.
I didn't know they could be re-built so that is nice info to have

I know the alternator isn't the original (numbers on it aren't correct) but I'm hoping the regulator is still good as I believe that is still the original part and i'm trying to retain as many of the original parts on the car as possible.

 

[BarryK]

well, just picked up Baby from the mechanic. Overall she was in pretty good shape and now she seems to be running just fine
She needed an adjustment on the clutch - he said there was no or very, very little free play so he adjusted that. Replaced the old bad battery that kept dying and leaking acid all over the frame rail and battery box but he repainted the battery box and left the frame rail to do as I need to.
Turns out the alternator was fine but the regulator died so that was replaced which is a shame because I still had the original unit in there - oh well, after 40 years one more original part bit the dust and had to be replaced.
Now, the big to-do ever since I bought the car - the timing issue!
Turns out that he went over everything dealing with timing again and the harmonic balancer was NOT bad and had NOT slipped afterall - the timing was really that far off the way it had been set. He got everything reset properly and he said she is now timed at 34* as it's supposed to be and she is running nice and smooth. Idle is good now and she runs smooth and power and acceleration are all real nice.
(I still have my "appointment" with Lars in Sept on his NJ trip so we will see if he can maybe even tweak Baby a bit more with his magic )
I also had him adjust my valves (365hp solid lifter motor) as per JohnZ's method of doing it cold and while a few valaves were out by a few thousandths he said overall they had been adjusted pretty good already and they have a real nice "singing" sound to them.
Replaced the plugs with new R45's.
He checked ALL fluids and everything looked fine.
Of course, we changed the oil, filter and air cleaner and lubed all the grease fittings.
He checked EVERYTHING under the hood and under the car and said everything looked in excellent shape. He did have to torque down the intake manifold bolts as they were loose but other than that everything else looked real good.
So, now I can FINALLY enjoy Baby for the rest of the season without too much concern or worry.

 

[Andy]

so glad to hear bud!!!

You know, CCND needs a place to convene at Carlisle as far as at the fairgrounds are concerned. any ideas? Many of us going, but all fragmented out....

Andy

well, just picked up Baby from the mechanic. Overall she was in pretty good shape and now she seems to be running just fine
She needed an adjustment on the clutch - he said there was no or very, very little free play so he adjusted that. Replaced the old bad battery that kept dying and leaking acid all over the frame rail and battery box but he repainted the battery box and left the frame rail to do as I need to.
Turns out the alternator was fine but the regulator died so that was replaced which is a shame because I still had the original unit in there - oh well, after 40 years one more original part bit the dust and had to be replaced.
Now, the big to-do ever since I bought the car - the timing issue!
Turns out that he went over everything dealing with timing again and the harmonic balancer was NOT bad and had NOT slipped afterall - the timing was really that far off the way it had been set. He got everything reset properly and he said she is now timed at 34* as it's supposed to be and she is running nice and smooth. Idle is good now and she runs smooth and power and acceleration are all real nice.
(I still have my "appointment" with Lars in Sept on his NJ trip so we will see if he can maybe even tweak Baby a bit more with his magic )
I also had him adjust my valves (365hp solid lifter motor) as per JohnZ's method of doing it cold and while a few valaves were out by a few thousandths he said overall they had been adjusted pretty good already and they have a real nice "singing" sound to them.
Replaced the plugs with new R45's.
He checked ALL fluids and everything looked fine.
Of course, we changed the oil, filter and air cleaner and lubed all the grease fittings.
He checked EVERYTHING under the hood and under the car and said everything looked in excellent shape. He did have to torque down the intake manifold bolts as they were loose but other than that everything else looked real good.
So, now I can FINALLY enjoy Baby for the rest of the season without too much concern or worry.

 

[BarryK]

Andy
that's a good idea but i'm not familiar enough with the place to know where. I'm parking in the '63-'67 registry area and others will be in other special interest areas same as your car will be in the special collection.
It might be easiest if we can maybe at least arrange to all meet for dinner one night? lets contact Jack and Janet to see if they have any suggestions.
Other than that....... Linda and I will have our 2-way radios there and if others have them also we can stay in contact as needed. We just need to arrange to all be on the same channel.