C7 Grandsport or Z06 Style

[1analguy]

...The question is will the ZR1 (the king) return in the C7?...

The only practical reason for the existence of the ZR1 is the Viper. Since the Viper has seen a very successful rebirth, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of ZR1-equivalent C7 in the offing, though probably in a more limited offering. After all, there are still dealers out there with new 2011 ZR1s for sale (at substantial discounts!)...and that can't be good for owners of used ZR1s, or for the image of the car as exclusive/exotic...

 

[LT4CE]

The only practical reason for the existence of the ZR1 is the Viper. Since the Viper has seen a very successful rebirth, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of ZR1-equivalent C7 in the offing, though probably in a more limited offering. After all, there are still dealers out there with new 2011 ZR1s for sale (at substantial discounts!)...and that can't be good for owners of used ZR1s, or for the image of the car as exclusive/exotic...

I disagree. I don't think that's the only reason. The ZR1 competes with all the top production sports cars in the world, not just the Viper. Check it's times at Nurburgring, against other production sports cars, for an example of what it's up against! Viper is on the list (and it's ahead of the ZR1!) but it's certainly not the only competition, imo.

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[catbert]

I disagree. I don't think that's the only reason. The ZR1 competes with all the top production sports cars in the world, not just the Viper. Check it's times at Nurburgring, against other production sports cars, for an example of what it's up against! Viper is on the list (and it's ahead of the ZR1!) but it's certainly not the only competition, imo.

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you are spot-on. The Viper that ran the Ring was a stripped down, no A/C or creature comforts ACR edition. The car was created for club and competition, and not for general consumption. It isn't competition for any sports/ TOURING car like the Vette. The ZR1 was intended to showcase Vette performance against world class road cars.

 

[1analguy]

I am very aware that the "Viper" that set the record at the Nordschleife was an ACR (a club racer), not a common Viper. It had a wing on it, for crying out loud. Which made it, literally, a "Ringer"...pun intended. How proud the Chrysler engineers must be, to have bested a totally stock, street version of the ZR1 with their Viper race car... :eyerole

When I implied that I thought that the Viper caused the ZR1, I was referring more to marketplace perception/bragging rights than to race track reality. When the 600hp version of the Viper first hit the street, all Chevy had to face it was the Z06...and they didn't much care for "sucking hind teat", as they say. When they eventually released the ZR1, it was seen by the marketplace as a more sophisticated way to achieve that level of performance than the Viper was, and they (Chevy) had their mojo back. Now, with the release of the new Viper, the "cold war" is resuming...and I predict that a C7-based response to the Viper will be forthcoming.

As to the ZR1 competing in the marketplace "with all the top production sports cars in the world, not just the Viper", that's just pure fantasy coming from someone who loves the ZR1 for what it is: a low-cost way to enjoy supercar performance. No one anywhere in the world who has the financial means to seriously consider the purchase of a supercar would ever give a thought to a ZR1. It doesn't have the required panache. One of the main goals in these purchases is to let everyone know how much money you have and, for these people, a ZR1 would just be saying "I didn't have enough money for a Ferrari or Lamborghini". Of course you and I would rather have a ZR1 than waste all that extra money on a finicky, fragile Euro-rod that's no faster than the Z, but we're all about the car's performance, while the supercar marketplace is about performance and perception...

 

[Dadman1950]

I am very aware that the "Viper" that set the record at the Nordschleife was an ACR (a club racer), not a common Viper...which made it, literally, a "ringer". It had a wing on it, for crying out loud. How proud the Chrysler engineers must be, to have bested a totally stock, street version of the ZR1 with their Viper race car... :eyerole

When I implied that I thought that the Viper caused the ZR1, I was referring more to marketplace perception/bragging rights than to race track reality. When the 600hp version of the Viper first hit the street, all Chevy had to face it was the Z06...and they didn't much care for "sucking hind teat", as they say. When they eventually released the ZR1, it was seen as a more sophisticated way to achieve that level of performance than the Viper was, and they (Chevy) had their mojo back. Now, with the release of the new Viper, the "cold war" is resuming...and I predict that a C7-based response to the Viper will be forthcoming.

As to the ZR1 competing in the marketplace "with all the top production sports cars in the world, not just the Viper", that's just pure fantasy coming from someone who loves the ZR1 for what it is: a low-cost way to enjoy supercar performance. No one anywhere in the world who has the financial means to seriously consider the purchase of a supercar would ever give a thought to a ZR1. It doesn't have the required panache. One of the main goals in these purchases is to let everyone know how much money you have and, for these people, a ZR1 would just be saying "I didn't have enough money for a Ferrari or Lamborghini". Of course you and I would rather have a ZR1 than waste all that extra money on a finicky, fragile Euro-rod that's no faster than the Z, but we're all about the car's performance, while the supercar marketplace is about performance and perception...

Well said! But IMHO the supercar marketplace is more about "perception" than "performance". The majority of supercar owners could never drive their cars even close to the car's performance limits. (But I would imagine that would also be true of many ZR1 owners - however we would like to think that a smaller percentage would fall into that category!)

 

[LT4CE]

You guys make good points. Those Europeans and even super rich Americans don't care about performance at all. It is all perception. Perception that they've got the most expensive performance car.

It's just one more example of function following form in a world of twisted priorities, when it should be the other way around. (How's that for making a car purchase preference into something way more important than it is! :duh)

 

[1analguy]

Well said! But IMHO the supercar marketplace is more about "perception" than "performance". The majority of supercar owners could never drive their cars even close to the car's performance limits. (But I would imagine that would also be true of many ZR1 owners - however we would like to think that a smaller percentage would fall into that category!)

Well said!

You guys make good points. Those Europeans and even super rich Americans don't care about performance at all. It is all perception. Perception that they've got the most expensive performance car.

It's just one more example of function following form in a world of twisted priorities, when it should be the other way around. (How's that for making a car purchase preference into something way more important than it is! :duh)

I don't think it's that they don't care about performance, I just think they care more about everyone knowing that they can afford performance than they do about the performance itself...

 

[Dadman1950]

I agree they do care about performance but they care more about creating the impression that they can afford a car that the majority cannot. if that is what floats their boat that's fine. as corvette enthusiasts though we also have to admit that there are those among us who fall into the same category. everything is relative.

 

[steveb01z06]

Even though Chrysler stuffed a pro driver into the seat for the Nurburgring lap against GM using a relatively talented but still amateur driver for their lap, I wish GM would look at the Viper ACR and do their own version of a track special that is still street legal, maybe even including a wing!

 

[steveb01z06]

Only Ferraris and Corvettes? Seems like a strange combination. I would probably have a Porsche or two if I had that much invested in my garage at least.

I've been following this LT1/C7 thing for a little while now with a little bit of amusement: since the numbers have been announced, so many comments have been negative regarding the peak power output before the car ever hits the road. If the base car is a sub four second 0-60 car, I'd say that's a pretty good starting point.

What I would like to see (or rather, one of the things I'd like to see), is stopping this escalation in wheel diameter. They build a stronger engine, then sap the engine power with taller and heavier wheels and tires. Not wider, where it would actually help a sports car's performance, just taller, where it slows it down. I think it's to the point where the first thing they have to decide when designing a car is how tall the wheels will be, then the engineers and stylists can get to work.

I think cars are starting to look cartoonish, not to mention the huge cost premium on tires. Also, I've even had trouble finding a tech who could mount tires even larger than 17's. If I found a guy, I'd have to follow him around from shop to shop.

 

[catbert]

I think Steveb has hit the nail on the head with the diminishing returns on the wheel/tire sizes. The unsprung weight of these monsters has a negative effect on handling and other components, let alone the harsh ride from minuscule sidewalls. If Corvette Racing can use sub 20 inch tires, I'm guessing we can too.

I don't understand the carping by some about the new LT engine line. With 450 horsepower and sub 4 second 0-60 times with the base motor in the first year of production, this thing has the potential to be a true monster down the road. GM has left a lot on the table for future development.

I believe that the C7 will be a big improvement over the C6, and I'm driving my third C6. Whether it will be a huge hit remains to be seen. Some people have a hard time getting past the small stuff like tail light shape. I hope it's a hit, because GM can't sustain a model with sub 12,000 sales forever.

 

[1analguy]

...What I would like to see (or rather, one of the things I'd like to see), is stopping this escalation in wheel diameter. They build a stronger engine, then sap the engine power with taller and heavier wheels and tires. Not wider, where it would actually help a sports car's performance, just taller, where it slows it down. I think it's to the point where the first thing they have to decide when designing a car is how tall the wheels will be, then the engineers and stylists can get to work.

I think cars are starting to look cartoonish, not to mention the huge cost premium on tires. Also, I've even had trouble finding a tech who could mount tires even larger than 17's. If I found a guy, I'd have to follow him around from shop to shop.

I think Steveb has hit the nail on the head with the diminishing returns on the wheel/tire sizes. The unsprung weight of these monsters has a negative effect on handling and other components, let alone the harsh ride from minuscule sidewalls. If Corvette Racing can use sub 20 inch tires, I'm guessing we can too...

This "wagon wheel" fad just drives me nuts. For some reason, if you want a '12 or '13 Z06 with MSRC, you're stuck with a 19/20 setup...even with the standard brakes! That setup actually makes Z06 brakes look too small. I never understood why they didn't just use 18s all around when they released the C5. Larger rear wheels? WTF? When I look at my '96 GS, the 17s look just fine...front and rear. Note to Chevrolet: Huge wheels look stupid and work bad. Why are you doing this to us? Please, stop...

If Chevy is truly serious about reducing the mass of the C7, they only need to ask their engineers where the best place is to remove that mass...the wheels! Yes, for once, the engineers are going to have to push back against the stylists and strip out some of the ugliest mass on the car. They can rightly point out that every unit of rotating mass removed from the wheels is roughly equivalent to ten units of mass removed from elsewhere in the car, in terms of performance. And the easiest way to remove mass from the wheels, without resorting to forged magnesium or carbon fiber, is to reduce the wheel diameter...to the minimum necessary to clear the brakes. When reducing a wheel's diameter, most of the mass reduction occurs in the rim...precisely where most of the "flywheel effect" mass resides. Acceleration, deceleration, steering transients, etc., would all improve markedly with the resulting lighter flywheels out at the corners of the car. But the stylists will have to be convinced that this is truly what we, the customers, really want. Sometimes I think that Styling's moto is really a paraphrase of Billy Crystal's Ricardo Montalban: "It is more important to look good than to work good"...

 

[steveb01z06]

I think the key will be fuel economy: once they realize that there are limited opportunities to improve economy, they will start looking at obvious things like the wheels. It may take a while because the public has started expecting 1-2" growth a year and it can't go on indefinitely. The consuming masses will have to become retrained in what is cool. The popularity of trucks have a lot to do with this obsession of wheel size, but trucks aren't expected to go around corners with any aplomb.


Speaking about fuel economy, I can't believe that there isn't an outburst of indignation over the cylinder deactivation. Maybe the tail light thing is just to distract from the cylinder cut-out.

 

[1analguy]

I'm waiting to see if they even offer cylinder deactivation with manual transmissions. When Chrysler started including it on Dodge and SRT HEMIs, they only used it on the automatic-equipped cars...and still do. Apparently, when used with a manual transmission, there was an NVH issue during the transitions from eight cylinders to four cylinders and back to eight. I don't understand why everyone is so upset about cylinder deactivation on an automatic-equipped car, though. The effect is almost completely transparent. If you're just cruising, why would you care how many cylinders are operating as long as power is adequate? When you dip into the throttle a bit, all eight are there waiting for you. And, at least the Chrysler system, does seem to be completely reliable...so fears of the added complexity appear to be unfounded.

 

[1analguy]

...I don't understand the carping by some about the new LT engine line. With 450 horsepower and sub 4 second 0-60 times with the base motor in the first year of production, this thing has the potential to be a true monster down the road. GM has left a lot on the table for future development...

The current C6 GS has a 0-60 rating of 3.95 sec., and that's with 430hp. If the new base car turns out to be lighter, and has 450+hp, it's going to be something quite special after all...