Can a 4L60E be built to stand up to a 396 LT1?

[Last Ride]

Hey gang--
The title pretty much says it all. I am planning on building a 396 CID stroker LT1 with a hp/torque goal of 500 or more (for s treet driven car, no high compression). I also plan on running 3.73 gears. Can a 4L60E be built to stand up to that kind of combo? What would my other options be? Thanks, as always!

 

[BlackNBlue95]

Hey gang--
The title pretty much says it all. I am planning on building a 396 CID stroker LT1 with a hp/torque goal of 500 or more (for s treet driven car, no high compression). I also plan on running 3.73 gears. Can a 4L60E be built to stand up to that kind of combo? What would my other options be? Thanks, as always!

I personally havn't tried it but i think it's possible.. especially if your running 3.73's or higher because your turning higher driveshaft speed but with less torque needed at the output shaft.. some upgrade you may want to include in the trans would be:
Trans Go Shift kit
Alto red eagle frictions/kolene steels
Kevlar racing band
Corvette 2/4 Servo or better
Upgraded Reaction Shell
Hardend input shaft
5 pinion planets

I would probably replace both sprags This is where I would start if I was attempting to build a trans for your app.. I've done everything ecept the hardend input shaft the reaction shell and the 5 pinion plantes on mine and it works great.. I also put a higher stall converter in.. 2600 vigilante that might be a good idea as well because your not getting a full engine load transfer to the input shaft right away I dunno..

I'm shure there will be others opinions all i know it from building my own trans.. so thats my .02 any questions?
-Rick

 

[vms4evr]

Take a look at www.netgearhead.com
You may not want to buy a completed tranny from them but they also sell the parts to rebuild for high output applications. They have a kit for it. So you can get an idea of what they think is needed for that kind of engine.
Graham

 

[STROKED1]

Hey brian, I presently have a 396 L-98 motor with the 700R4 tranny. It's basically the same tranny as the 4L60E except yours is computer controlled. Anyway I narrowed my choice down to two shops, #1 is ROSLER TRANSMISSIONS. You might have heard of this shop, they do all the transmission work for the lingenfelter cars, hence the 8.95 1/4 TT vette. Their shop is in ohio & can be contacted @ 1-330-530-0066, you should talk to carl. Another shop you could look at is BOWTIE OVERDRIVES out of california. They have four levels of tranny's, with level 4 being RADICAL STREET/STRIP, probablymore than enough for your application. By the way my 396 is also nitroused. I hope these two shops help you in your quest for power.

 

[threestar40]

I just bought a level 3 4L60 from bowtie overdrives and did all the research on what what be best for my soon to be back halved 91 GMC full size truck with a blown and injected 331 in it.

What I learned is a 4L80e would be a lot stronger...but also a lot more expensive.

A th400 would also be a lot stronger but you don't get no overdrive. You could do one of those gear vendors overdrive units but they are about 2 grand. You would then have in effect a six speed automatic for 3K...about the same as a 4L80E with a new control unit for it.

I only bought a 4L60 because I already have one and I want to learn how to build a tranny, that would mean I would have one working and one on my bench ready to go. Otherwise I think I would have gone 4L80E.

If you are doing a stand-alone tranny, I would seriously consider a 4L80E from TCI I came real close to buying one and I may live to regret it, but one of my friends told me that they were reall expensive to rebuild and that reminded me of my original plan to be able to fix every single thing that could break on my truck myself.

I know the whole truck bumper to bumper except the tranny and I am on my way to learning that one even if it is not the strongest choice I could have made, I think the 4L60 is a pretty good tranny by design.

 

[BlackNBlue95]

I'm personally not a big fan of TCI i was then i bought one of their rebuild kits.. now i just buy everything seperate from www.bulkpart.com no tax and shipping is 7.50$ rather assemble a kit myself i mean they sell kits but you have to also buy a band and stuff.. they are a whole saler and have great deals..
-Rick

 

[Blown Vette]

A 4l60 will not last long. Save money and get a 400. I have been through this many times and wish I did the 400 in the first place. You will be asked to pay $1800.00 and given a ton of excuses when it fails.

 

[threestar40]

Blown Vette,

Tell us what happened. Did you have any decent parts in it? When it failed...What Part broke?

How much were you abusing it and what kind of hp and torque is your motor putting out?

Rick =)

 

[Blown Vette]

Blown Vette,

Tell us what happened. Did you have any decent parts in it? When it failed...What Part broke?

How much were you abusing it and what kind of hp and torque is your motor putting out?

Rick =)

The first was a Art Carr, lasted 2 weeks.Tthen a local so called race trans builder built one, did not make it home. Had one that worked until I had it freshened then it lasted a few days. Engine at the time had good power but not the 500 this post is about.

The 4l80 robs a ton of power thus the reason you never see them at the track.

If you want to try go ahead, I am stating a fact from real life experiences and a owner of a 90 with a 400 and gearvendors. You may have better luck but I doubt it.

 

[threestar40]

So, It looks like you had one tranny that was decent and working until you screwed with it?

Why did you do attempt the "freshen up" and what were you trying to "freshen up"?

I've heard statements similar to yours but I also know that most people don't really know squat about their automatic trannys myself included.

This guy posed a good question, I know a lot of people have already been down this road, but tell us what really happened...

I'm trying to learn something other than one guys opinion.

Sounds like you got screwed on a couple of your tranny jobs as I have been once with a 700r4 but the people I bought it from were idiots and didn't really go through the tranny like they should have.

What do you think about this statement from bowtie overdrives regarding How much hp can a 700r4 handle:

I am going to assume that the real question is will the 700R4 transmission survive in my car without causing me endless grief? It has been our experience that a properly built and installed TH-700R4 will live a very long life in full sized cars behind even stout big block motors. This is not to imply that they are indestructible, just very tough. We have found these transmissions to be reliable to about 11 flat in the quarter mile in 3600 to 3800 pound cars. Beyond this figure we have very little experience for two reasons. We build high performance street transmissions. The vast majority of our customers want a high performance street transmission not a full race unit. (They have nicer light throttle manners where most people drive 99% of the time.) Our typical customer is a casual drag racer and only runs the car at the drag strip a couple of times a year.

I know everyone believes that they can drive a street-able full size big block Chevelle back and forth to work daily and cut low ten-second E.T.'s on the week ends at the local drag strip. We have a very difficult finding anyone that can show us real time slips that prove this. Please note that I carefully used the words "STREET-ABLE". Please don’t flood me with time slips proving me wrong because I know there are lots of cars that prowl the streets looking for people to humiliate with their race cars disguised as daily drivers. For you folks Lenco’s and custom built Power-glides, Th-400s or any number of manual transmissions work great. If you hard core guys want an overdrive, Gear Venders or the 4l80E (We keep 4L80E's and their computer systems in stock too!) are reasonable choices. For everyone else looking for a dependable high performance transmission that will hang in there down to eleven flats, you will be hard pressed to find a better choice than a TH-700R4.


Maybe your blown vette is capable of a lot more hp than a 700r4 can handle...being blown, I would think its possible.

I just want to know why? Are the clutches in it smaller diameter? Do most of them that fail not have the hard parts in them? Is it just not stronger by design? Do they not make strong enough parts for them?


Maybe any automatic is just a "wear item". One guy said recently, all automatics are "wear items" I even considered a powerglide.

For the street though, maybe a 700r4 is still a good piece of hardware. I for one would be happy to have a true daily driver capable of 11.99 in reliable street trim.

Rick =)

 

[Last Ride]

The first was a Art Carr, lasted 2 weeks.Tthen a local so called race trans builder built one, did not make it home. Had one that worked until I had it freshened then it lasted a few days. Engine at the time had good power but not the 500 this post is about.

The 4l80 robs a ton of power thus the reason you never see them at the track.

If you want to try go ahead, I am stating a fact from real life experiences and a owner of a 90 with a 400 and gearvendors. You may have better luck but I doubt it.

So, I gather then that you are happy with your TH400/GV setup? I have thought of both the 4L80E and the TH400/GV, but don't know if it is worth the extra cost. My car might see two or three trips to the track a year. The rest of the time, it will be a weekend warrior. How is your setup on the street? What gearing do you use for the rear? I have no problem going with something like this as long as I can justify the cost, you know?

 

[c4c5specialist]

Hi there,
Many options exist for 4L60 classification transmissions.
Can you use a 3L80, or a TH400???? Yes, but as noted above, the problem is not only power usage, but fit, as it will take modifications to the frame, and driveline tunnel to make it fit.
Now, on to the 4L60, which has been constantly updated since its inception in 82. There is a book which classifies updates to 1997, which is 319 pages long.
Honestly, it is NOT the power which destroys the transmission, it is the actual transfer of power, and the torque shock through the driveline. Just remember, that the design of this transmission is that it will break internally, then explode out of the case. This is the reason that you find broken planetaries, fractured sun shell, broken input housing and the like.
I would suggest that you look at your final drive ratio, and your first gear, which is 3.06, and then perform the computation below.
Horsepower, or torque at the crankshaft, multiplied times 3.06. Take that total, then multiply times your final drive ratio. That is the actual horsepower, or torque, based on your computation. Now, if your tires breakloose, then you are not actually putting all torque through the driveline. It is only the massive hookup, that creates breakage.
In the attached document, this is the clutches, band, housings that will take the brute punch of the power.
621 is your input housing, which has been revised a bunch of times. Clutch package 649a,b is your forward clutch, which is engaged in all forward gears. Your 2,4 band, which is 602, takes massive abuse on the 1/2 shift, and requires that the servo that operates be VERY quick on the engagement.
As Blacknblue has shown, there are aftermarket companies that have upgraded components for this transmission, and they hold up extremely well.
On a horsepower build, NOTHING is for certain, but I can tell you that 90% of failures on 4L60 are directly related to torque loading shock to the transmission. The other 10% are usually due to leaking seals, fluid breakdown, or just fatigued components.
I hope this helps, and in my opinion, 4L60 can be made to handle this power, as long as the driver is educated to the way to drive the car.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[threestar40]

Now thats some good info.

Thanks. =)

 

[Blown Vette]

Hi there,
Many options exist for 4L60 classification transmissions.
Can you use a 3L80, or a TH400???? Yes, but as noted above, the problem is not only power usage, but fit, as it will take modifications to the frame, and driveline tunnel to make it fit.
Allthebest, c4c5

Where does the frame and driveline need to be clearanced?

Have you personaly ever done this conversion?

 

[BlackNBlue95]

Hi there,
Honestly, it is NOT the power which destroys the transmission, it is the actual transfer of power, and the torque shock through the driveline.

Now, if your tires breakloose, then you are not actually putting all torque through the driveline. It is only the massive hookup, that creates breakage.

Your 2,4 band, which is 602, takes massive abuse on the 1/2 shift, and requires that the servo that operates be VERY quick on the engagement.

As Blacknblue has shown, there are aftermarket companies that have upgraded components for this transmission, and they hold up extremely well.

On a horsepower build, NOTHING is for certain, but I can tell you that 90% of failures on 4L60 are directly related to torque loading shock to the transmission.

I agree couldn't put it better myself.. You have to know the limits of the trans because when your pushing some much power you are taking it to the limits which you can expect failures no matter how much money or work you have done to the trans to make it handle such power..

I've also heard that harsh shifting can cause the alimuminum drum around the input shaft to crack.. But for me I would go with a higher gear ratio like a 3.73 because that will put less stress on the output shaft..

I'm not shure about this because a high stall converter does alow slippage so I would think it would not shock the drive train as hard as a lower stall but it does however bring engine speed up for a higher torque going to the input shaft so I'm not shure.. but , most likely your gonna run some type of higher stall converter if your going with a race engine setup and a built trans.. so it may be a moot point..

 

[c4c5specialist]

The first was a Art Carr, lasted 2 weeks.Tthen a local so called race trans builder built one, did not make it home. Had one that worked until I had it freshened then it lasted a few days. Engine at the time had good power but not the 500 this post is about.

The 4l80 robs a ton of power thus the reason you never see them at the track.

If you want to try go ahead, I am stating a fact from real life experiences and a owner of a 90 with a 400 and gearvendors. You may have better luck but I doubt it.

Hi there,
Yes, I attempted to do this swap in a 82, and it was not good. Due to the signature of the owner, he has a 78, which is the same tunnel. First, the driveshaft must be thicker, and length changed to different center to center length. The tunnel on the passenger side, must be radiused 1 3/8 in, from point 10 degree top to 93 degrees from vertical center line. The mid crossmember has to have the transmount changed, to a shorter mounting point, by 3 5/8 inch.
This will keep the hz channel to 24.7 hz at 75 mph.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[-=Jeff=-]

Last Ride,

There is a guy that posts on the other forum that goes by Monty, he is a friend of mine, He has a 4L80e in his 82. you may want to talk to him if that is the route you decide

 

[Last Ride]

First off, the 4L60E in question already resides in my 1978 Corvette. Origingally, the vehicle came with a TH350, and many C3's came with a TH400, so I doubt there would be much modification to fit either of those units back on the car with a Gear Vendors OD. From what I understand, the 4L80E might take some massaging, but it will fit. My question is, no matter what I go with, I will probably be changing the rear gears from the 3.08 that is in there now. I like the 4L60E because of the shiftpoints and the .70 overdrive. I could go with a (numerically) lower gear with the 4L60E and have the same if not better throttle response with a (numerically) higher gear and a 4L80E or a TH400/GV combo. All this while having a deeper overdrive for cruising! I don't know, I will still be weighing the options, but some of these stories of "built" 4L60's grenading has me scared. I just don't want to put extra money where it's not needed.

Last Ride,

There is a guy that posts on the other forum that goes by Monty, he is a friend of mine, He has a 4L80e in his 82. you may want to talk to him if that is the route you decide

Not the same Monty with the 427TT, by chance? He has a serious ride! I have emailed him before about his project, but he is putting down some serious power, or which I am aiming for just under half! He's a nice guy, always willing to talk shop, so I might just have to email him again for his take.

 

[-=Jeff=-]

Not the same Monty with the 427TT, by chance? He has a serious ride! I have emailed him before about his project, but he is putting down some serious power, or which I am aiming for just under half! He's a nice guy, always willing to talk shop, so I might just have to email him again for his take.

Same guy.. He will give you his experience

 

[Bob86ZZ4]

Another very happy th400/Gear Vendors conversion here! I did this last winter to my car and love every minute of it. I went through 2 700r4's. One was supposedly "bullet proof, easily handle 600h/p." Ha. Go the th400/GV and you will always be smiling.