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Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off

Yoda

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:thumb Paul I couldn't agree more ~ so what dates work for you to meet in Las Vegas :D :boogie

Bud
 

gmjunkie

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:thumb Paul I couldn't agree more ~ so what dates work for you to meet in Las Vegas :D :boogie

Bud
If you guys can make it before Jan 15th or so I'll drive Steve's car and keep the miles down on mine!!:boogie:boogie:boogie

:thumb :D:D:D
 

vett boy

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If you guys can make it before Jan 15th or so I'll drive Steve's car and keep the miles down on mine!!:boogie:boogie:boogie

:thumb :D:D:D
Hey ,i'm keepin' my eye on you fella;)

I'm also watchin' GM closely.Keep in mind GM does a lot in the defence industry .Who'll fill that gap China ?
 
G

grapeknutz

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It's the perception of the lack of quality the big three need to battle. It took about 30 years for Toyota to battle the moniker of " made in japan" ( for all of us that remember that) that made it derogatory, now it said with pride for the Japanese.
I have no argument that the American worker is the best, head to head with any foreign worker. I do however have the a problem with the quality of the engineering the the big three have, and the business decisions the executives used that got them here at this point in time.
Whats needed is for the executives to leave and get some real car guys to take charge and start steering in a direction that will get the car buying public to actually buy car that they want!! NOT what congress wants us to buy!

soapbox.gif
 

Bonnell

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Rob, very well written. I concur with your opinions 100%.

Time for our country to take back the manufacturing and the innovation we have allowed to leave.

Time to tell the UAW they will have to start playing by the Big 3's rules, not theirs!

WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON, WILL SOMEONE PLEASE SAVE THE :w?


I agree. :thumb
 

Yoda

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Bailout, Bridge Loan call what you like, there isn’t neither enough money nor government help that will provide the relief needed by ALL the greed. Yep GREED, you, me, small business, large business and our Government.

We don’t have to look too far back to see a very similar pattern…. Of greed.. Remember these institutions and the abuse they “fostered” Federal Land Bank ~ Farm Credit System. It wasn’t the fault of these fine Government backed institutions,..... Well they contributed to all the FARM FORECLOSERS in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s. It takes 2 to tangle. The inflationary price for land, and the GREED of ALL parties brought down many family owned farms. Even some huge Insurance Companies and Foreign Investors found the bone pile back then.

Personal accountability and sound business decisions were cast aside and customers couldn’t sign notes fast enough (read Contracts) for what “They couldn’t believe” to be true loans on their property and homes. When the government started using agricultural products as a “weapon” to influence policy… well we all know what happened. Loans came due, and land prices and farm commodities fell like a lead ballon.

That was some 25 or 30 years ago. Now we see a similar economic crisis rearing it’s ugly head in the form of “home mortgages and business failures.” We all share in this debacle…. As consumers, as business owners.... The Golden Goose was running through everyone’s yard laying those Golden Eggs, seems we all forgot that if you don’t feed the Goose, and provide a little care, the Goose will die and even if the Golden Goose is cared for, it only lives so long.

I can not believe that the Big 3 will fail without a Government Bailout. I may be naïve or too cynical. If there is a way to turn the Auto Industry around, then there will be investors. It may require a purchase through bankruptcy and a complete restructure before the price is appealing enough.

Having the Government take over ANY control of the Auto Industry would be like having a wolf or fox taking care of the Golden Goose!

The FARM Community, and agricultural products survived the depression of the ‘30s, it survived the ‘80s … Will the Auto Industry survive … Will we still have a Chicken (Goose) in every pot and 3 or more Vehicles in every driveway?? As the old saying goes… the Best Times about owning a boat, “The Day I bought it and the Day I SOLD it…”

Bud
 

johnm

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Rob, very well written. I concur with your opinions 100%.

Time for our country to take back the manufacturing and the innovation we have allowed to leave.

Time to tell the UAW they will have to start playing by the Big 3's rules, not theirs!

WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON, WILL SOMEONE PLEASE SAVE THE :w?
Let me start by saying I am not a UAW supporter, however I wil say all the bailouts in the world won't help if people don't buy their products. American cars are as good or better than imports! BUT even if they aren't "YOU ARE BUYING MORE THAN A CAR. YOU ARE BUYING A LIFESTYLE" You can pay for the japanese economy to boom or your own. The thing about the UAW is they took a lot of money out of the corporation and put it into the economy by SPENDING it in bussineses like mine all over the country. I took that money and spent it in businesess like yours! It is time for americans to stop being so damn "me" oriented and do what's right for the country.Because if your neighbor isn't thriving neither will you for long. We are all interconnected. Finally, I watched the senate hearings with the big 3 bosses-what an outrage! These arrogant SOBs telling the CEOs the missmanaged their companies money now they what taxpayers to bail them out. They should have straightened their houses out long ago. WHAT CRAP! these jokers have grotesquely mismanaged the business of our country with no sign of fixing their house. Whenever they need more money they get a "taxpayer bailout" by raising taxes. Worse yet they are now borrowing money from our grand kids. This is revolting. And for them to call the car compnies out. OUTRAGEOUS. We NEED to wake up folks! Buy AMERICAN! and lets vote these jerks out of office and get some decent people in there before it's to late.
 

XLR8

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johnm,
You made some very valid points, thank you for speaking up. :thumb

Money paid to American workers goes right back into our economy, our communities, our schools, providing more jobs for more Americans. Good point.

And it's hilarious, ironic, or pathetic - you chose your favorite term - that the people questioning, badgering and chastising the CEO's are collectively the most stupid and poorest money managers on the planet.

:( Jane Ann
 

LT4 CE

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It's time for Americans to take their blinders off

Hi Rob,

There is another reason most Americans are against the bailout and encouraging the auto companies to declare bankrupcy. It is the Unions!

Once they declare bankrupcy, the union contracts will be void, and the auto companies can start over without the burden of high wages, early retirement with benefits, production limitations, and the health insurance burden. When these restrictions are removed, the auto companies can start to compete on a more equitable basis with foreign manufacturers.

I am not suggesting that the Unions are the sole reason for the auto manufacturers demise, but it is the major cause for their losing money.

LT4 CE
 

Full Bull

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It Ain't GM

Folks,

As one who has negotiated with labor unions in the past (not the UAW), and have personally seen the backroom deals made between the union and their closest political allies, I can tell you that GM's not the running this game/calling the shots--the Union and the Senate Dems are.

Trust me, if GM had it's way, they'd dump the UAW contracts/agreements and start from scratch. When appx $4,500 (thereabouts) of every car GM builds/sales goes to pay for the health care benefits of their current and past employees--and these cars are priced in the mid to upper $30K--folks can't afford to buy and GM's not going to be able to sell. As one talking head on the radio said, "The American people are going to awaken to the fact that GM is really a health care company who happens to build cars on the side." There's much truth to that statement ....

Believe the ONLY way GM stays in business is that they get back to producing cars that the majority of Americans can afford; if they don't, no amount of money sent their way will save their bacon. These loans will only serve to postpone the inevitable ....
 

WB9MCW

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I THINK I FOUND THE PROBLEM

forduawcontract.jpg

Ever wondered what a UAW contract looks like? Here is all 22 pounds of it (in this case, Ford’s 2,215 page 2007 master contract; Coke can is for scale and because I was thirsty).​

I’ll tell you this much, those 2,215 pages don’t include much regarding efficiency and competitiveness. What you’ll find are hundreds of rules, regulations, and letters of understanding that have hamstrung the auto companies for years.​

If you’d like to read the contracts for yourself, here they are >>>​

 

gmjunkie

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Yikes!

It would take a full-time staff of Mandarins just to look up the answer to any question that came up. :eyerole

smiley-leaving.gif
Aren't those Oranges?? :D:D:D
 

ken mohr

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usa
I think the management needs to lead by taking a pay cut. The UAW here took a pay cut of 40%. Now you are asking them to take another. The top exes are all making over 10M and we are asking an employee making 36K to take another pay cut while the top management take home millions. They say they are worth it. The price of GM stock in 2002 was $68.00 now it is less than $5.00 but the board of directors are excellent. What would the numbers be if they were not such smart people? -$65.00 per share. The numbers I hear on the Toyota plant is $26.00 per hour or 54K a year. They are not going bankrupt. Also remember GM management agreed to the contracts and got big bonuses for being smart enough to negotiate them. The greed in GM is not limited. they are all guilty.
 
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Happy New Year and . . .

I would like to be really optimistic, but the facts don't lend themselves to that perspective. The Dow Jones ended the worst year since the great depression at around 8700 and we are as close to a full depression as we've ever been. Unless Detriot and the UAW decide that "They" are going to tackle the real Economic situation "NOW", then come March 30, we're going to be closed, Period! the Big 3 don't hold the 70% they once did, they hold 19% and dropping. So far GM has failed over and over at developing more market attractive models then ever. 'Can you really compare a Nissin Sentra with a Chevy Aveo ? beyond that we have the Colbalt, and frankly folks ain't breaking down the doors to get one of these either. I'm not a Union basher, and at this point I really don't know what their game plan is, but I can sum up what should be in their immediate newsletter, New Job Training center to Open soon ! Ford seems to be in almost OK position, GM as of Monday had a 0 balance in their operations bank account, save for the billions that the government deposited last night. But the senior management at GM needs to be replaced. I really don't think any long term plans exist. As is the case with Chrysler, their long range plans hold very little in a competitive model lineup. And whoever runs GM marketing and advertising needs to be fire at once. The reality is that the big 3 automakers are going to need about 1/3 + less workers that at present. And no matter how rosey the water is scented, the taste is bitter. GM needs Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. GMAC is a viable company and should be invested in, Chevy needs a total revamp, Hummer, How did this vehicle make it through "concept initiation"? what market is it directed at? all it's models are on Consumer reports WORSE MADE list, Jeep rounds out the list? Combine Pontiac models with Chevy. Decide if Buick is worth reshaping, I think perhaps it is, (But my opinion doesn't matter). What is most troubling to me is that 1. the US government Does Not want to get into the auto building industry. 2. I belive Mr. Gettlefinger would be quite happy to go home on April 1st and have a beer or cup of coffee and say "Well I did my best for the retired members, but of course we all laid off since the company is in bank receivership. and 3. I don't think anybody involved understands that WE ARE NOT SPENDING MONEY WE HAVE! we are barrowing money that your children and their children are going to have to pay back. 700 billion is a lot , lot of money. I want to see the American auto industry flourish, but it can only do this at a much smaller industry. The whole mindset of the peole involved needs to change, because come March 30th, and there's not a really, really conservative long range plan on the table, the Government is going to get involved in New Job training with our infrastructure and existing industries in mind. because we don't have the money to spend it both ways. I wish things were better, but their not and the sooner we realize that the faster we are going to prepare for the future. There is no such thing as a job guarranty anymore in any industry. I'm sorry if I disturbed anyone holiday, but we have to think about what is really important in life, like taking care of the children, their education and the elderly. Imagine what would happen come March if the Social Security Administration was in competition for the same dollars that Detriot is begging for, because that's not really that far off the mark! GM, Ford and Chrysler = self;help That Mr Wagoner and Mr. Gettlefinger is the future. The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
G

grapeknutz

Guest
I would like to be really optimistic, but the facts don't lend themselves to that perspective. The Dow Jones ended the worst year since the great depression at around 8700 and we are as close to a full depression as we've ever been. Unless Detriot and the UAW decide that "They" are going to tackle the real Economic situation "NOW", then come March 30, we're going to be closed, Period! the Big 3 don't hold the 70% they once did, they hold 19% and dropping. So far GM has failed over and over at developing more market attractive models then ever. 'Can you really compare a Nissin Sentra with a Chevy Aveo ? beyond that we have the Colbalt, and frankly folks ain't breaking down the doors to get one of these either. I'm not a Union basher, and at this point I really don't know what their game plan is, but I can sum up what should be in their immediate newsletter, New Job Training center to Open soon ! Ford seems to be in almost OK position, GM as of Monday had a 0 balance in their operations bank account, save for the billions that the government deposited last night. But the senior management at GM needs to be replaced. I really don't think any long term plans exist. As is the case with Chrysler, their long range plans hold very little in a competitive model lineup. And whoever runs GM marketing and advertising needs to be fire at once. The reality is that the big 3 automakers are going to need about 1/3 + less workers that at present. And no matter how rosey the water is scented, the taste is bitter. GM needs Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. GMAC is a viable company and should be invested in, Chevy needs a total revamp, Hummer, How did this vehicle make it through "concept initiation"? what market is it directed at? all it's models are on Consumer reports WORSE MADE list, Jeep rounds out the list? Combine Pontiac models with Chevy. Decide if Buick is worth reshaping, I think perhaps it is, (But my opinion doesn't matter). What is most troubling to me is that 1. the US government Does Not want to get into the auto building industry. 2. I belive Mr. Gettlefinger would be quite happy to go home on April 1st and have a beer or cup of coffee and say "Well I did my best for the retired members, but of course we all laid off since the company is in bank receivership. and 3. I don't think anybody involved understands that WE ARE NOT SPENDING MONEY WE HAVE! we are barrowing money that your children and their children are going to have to pay back. 700 billion is a lot , lot of money. I want to see the American auto industry flourish, but it can only do this at a much smaller industry. The whole mindset of the peole involved needs to change, because come March 30th, and there's not a really, really conservative long range plan on the table, the Government is going to get involved in New Job training with our infrastructure and existing industries in mind. because we don't have the money to spend it both ways. I wish things were better, but their not and the sooner we realize that the faster we are going to prepare for the future. There is no such thing as a job guarranty anymore in any industry. I'm sorry if I disturbed anyone holiday, but we have to think about what is really important in life, like taking care of the children, their education and the elderly. Imagine what would happen come March if the Social Security Administration was in competition for the same dollars that Detriot is begging for, because that's not really that far off the mark! GM, Ford and Chrysler = self;help That Mr Wagoner and Mr. Gettlefinger is the future. The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.


I remember back in the day when GM decided to go with the "corporate engine" in 1978, I was in the dealer network as a mechanic and we were shocked when this happened! We had customers come in with Oldsmobiles with a Chevy engines in them to the customers dismay. Even the Olds dealer would refuse to work on them and the owners of the cars wanted GM to buy them back as they thought they were being swindled by GM. This was to "save" money for GM, but the quality of the build contineued to get worst, and the customer satifaction continued to decline. To me this was the water mark of GMs decline to posible bankuptcy and it's image of poorly built cars.
 

WB9MCW

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Well put Killian I think you hit the nail on the head.

The formula is broken and it needs a major overhaul.

To put the burden on the future generations of Americans is not right period.

If any of the 52% of the GDP small business companies get in trouble well who saves our azz?

Remember The great Senator Clinton's comment as the first lady "We can't help it if you small businesses are under capitalized and have trouble making it through tough times." :bash

The last thing I want to see is the government get into the health care business. We will end up like Canada. They come to the US for operations on their own nickel (more like saved up Gold coins) since the waiting list is so long in their own country. Some great solution that is. :puke

We have major issues ahead for the new "I am gonna bring you great change" President. Notice as soon as he was elected he started back tracking about how big the economy problems are and how it may take him 1-2 -- well heck maybe 4 years to turn it all around. He is already figuring he will need 2 terms to fix it all--- RIGHT!!! :chuckle

I think he has just now figured out how big a job he has in front of him and now with the new Zion-Hamas War just starting he will be tested as soon as he begins as well Ms. Hillary too! ;shrug

I am sorry to say the government is not very good at business and if they were held to the standards they hold all the "real business companies" (Banks and Car companies evidently excluded) to they would never survive. ;LOL

This whole business of the Freddy/Fanny bailout is pathetic and a total ripoff of the Taxpayers to bailout the banks (who print and control our money in the first place) and to give control to one man (who has the banks best interest in mind being an ex one of them) is a total sham and trickery at its finest. Shame on the all of the Repubs and Demos for this crap. I do not trust either party anymore.:ugh

Funny how the banks are sitting on the money now with no accountability and the dumb azzes in Congress look like a bunch of nim wits because they were and are. Stupid is as stupid does. :bash

Full time munti-term, multi-millionaire, lawyer/banker politicians who vote their own wages and belong to the "elite ruling class", Self appointed big wigs are the real problem and the fact that many years ago President Wilson sold the USA to the New York bankers who were afraid of losing financial control of the country because of the wealth transfer happening to the farmers and the western expansion of the USA to the banks south and west was the real beginning of the problem. It is now just finally caught up to us all. :mad

The depression generation is very well into retirement and most are doing very well indeed -- Look at em all in Florida and AZ. and at the BJ auction spending all their wealth. They do not have to worry about Social Security. The silent generation now is well into retirement is in about the same boat -- good timing and they will be OK before SS goes broke. :D

Ahh but the Baby Boomers (me) -- we are up the chit creek with out any paddle. The whole damn system will be broken and impossible to repair since there is not enough younger workers to pay into SS to make it work any more. :confused

But fear not Baby Boomers because the new great King Obama has promised us a great change and he and all of his smart cronies will finger out another way to fix it for a while longer to get all of us Baby Boomers through a decent retirement. :upthumbs

No doubt at the expense of the future generations. You see this is how modern politics works - it is called "Passing the Buck" or should I say "NO BUCKS" on to the next generation. :L

Sorry I paint such a bleak future bit I am just trying to be real and relate all that History should have taught us. I guess us Americans think the great ruling elite who are so smart and know it all will finger it all out and save us all! --- NOT!!! :chuckle

As Henry Ford said many years ago "Tis good the average American knows not much about the real financial conditions and operations of the US government and how the ultra wealthy bankers have it all worked out because if they did there would be a revolution at the White House the very next morning." :mad

Does an ostrich with its head in the sand come to mind!:W

Sheeple of the USA need to wake up and vote the bums out of congress and put in real honest non-lawyer and non-banker types who will run a real county the way the forefathers designed it to be. Go to Washington and serve a term maybe two and then go back to where you came from and get back into the business that made you in the first place. :thumb

Boy have we deviated from that original formula. No wonder it is all screwed up these days. Wealthy career friggin lawyer/banker politicians for life that is the problem in a nutshell. And it is very wrong! :eek:hnoes

"JMO and I might be all wrong" -- as Dennis Miller likes to say. :beer


 

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