engine temp

[BarryK]

Terry
thanks for the very thorough and easy to understand explanation. You explained everything so nice that even I could understand it and feel I can follow and do the steps as you described. I printed out your post so I can have it next to me as I do it .
I just checked the coolant level in the expansion tank with the car cold after sitting all night and it's approx. half full so I guess the radiator is full.
Yes, the car has been running very well since I got it back from the mechanics - very strong, no hesitations or bogging down and no pinging that I can hear over the side pipes although as you know it's not easy to hear much of anything except the pipes when she's running.
I'll run out to the parts store this week and attempt your instructions - if you get a frantic phone call from me this week you will know I ran into a snag........

 

[JL66REDCPE]

Many times the symptoms you describe point to retarded ignition timing at idle. If the vacuum line is attached and there are no leaks, then it is possible that your vacuum can gave out.

 

[Vette66AirCoupe]

Barry,

Unfortunately I'm leaving on a trip to Wyoming and South Dakota in the morning or we could run through some of this stuff. I've got too much on my plate today. Does the neighbor you mentioned have a timing light? If so, ask him to check your timing with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged at idle. You can check out JL's concern at the same time. while holding the light on the timing mark get someone to reconnect the vacuum advance hose and you will see the timing mark noticeably jump up (advance). If your neighbor has a more modern timing light than this old dog he will even be able to check the total advance number for you. Dinosaurs like me never had that kind of equipment so we just looked for the jump and said, "Yep, it's working. Back 'er out!"

 

[BarryK]

Many times the symptoms you describe point to retarded ignition timing at idle. If the vacuum line is attached and there are no leaks, then it is possible that your vacuum can gave out.

John
I suppose it's possible the can went but it's brand new from last year when I had the distributor completely rebuilt.
If I had the car running and than disconnected the vacuum line from the can and there was NO change in the idle quality would that be a proper way to test the can?

 

[BarryK]

Terry
my car is too important so you better cancel your trip and drive over here!

yes, my neighbor has a timing light - i think it's a more basic one rather than the dial-back (is that correct?) type but it should still give us an idea of where the timing is.
I'll see if he is available today to give me a hand to check it

 

[JL66REDCPE]

John
If I had the car running and than disconnected the vacuum line from the can and there was NO change in the idle quality would that be a proper way to test the can?

Terry and I are both from the same dinosaur era. Although testing it this way is not the "proper" way to test the can. It is one way to test it. It is a rough test however one I use as well before I drag out all the other equipment.

Dont forget to put your finger over the vacuum hose when you disconnect it.

 

[BarryK]

thanks John, I'll give it a try and report back the results

 

[ctjackster]

Barry - the time has obviously come for you to either borrow or purchase a timing light, so that, when issues like this present themselves (with multiple suggestions that you might want to check your timing) you can go ahead and do so in 5 minutes or less. We promise you that checking timing and perhaps setting the timing is a very minor, no open heart surgery kind of thing - at best you will need to loosen just one (1) bolt, the one that holds the Dist in place so it cannot "twist" on its own.

PS - I kind of lied, since I had it drilled into my head the trully "correct" way (at the age of 16) to check and set timing - check and set your dwell first. You are going to want to get that dwell meter out of the box, and grab an allen wrench (1/8" as I recall) and hook that multi-function meter (the one you mentioned you had somewhere) and check your dwell (that is the really nothing more than the point gap), and if not correct, open the little window on the distrib, insert the allen wrench, and adjust as the engine is running.

Failing that, you have another easy solution - if you really susepct timing has slipped (loose dist hold down) then bring it back to the mechanic that just did the work for you. The fact that your idle dropped to 650 is another possible sign that the timing moved out of spec. Or a sign the the idle speed was not set properly (THAT is also something you can do yourself, with a flat blade screwdriver). In fact, since you need to check your timing at idle with the vacuum can disconnected, there is no way in hell you will be able to do so on your L76 with a 650 idle, so you will absolutely need to find the idle speed screw and twist it. So that's a third thing.

 

[BarryK]

Jack, you're right, it's time (no pun intended ) that I bought myself a timing light.
Any suggestions? I know the dial-back types are more expensive but do they make things easier and worth the extra money?
I have a Sears nearby so if their timing lights are decent I can run down there and get one but I have NO clue what to buy.
Yes, I'd strongle considered taking the car back to the mechanic again but hate having to leave it yet another time and possibly end up have to shell out more money but I may have to do that.

I'm running out on a few errands but when i'm back in a little while I'm going to check the vacuum can as John suggested and i'll break out my multi-function meter that I've never used yet and see if I can get a reading on the dwell. I don't know what the dwell reading SHOULD be but once I get more info on both these things i'll post back here.
I'm off to the parts store for the thermostat housing gasket and new thermostadt just so I have one, and paint for the housing that I need to repaint anyway, and some anti-freeze. I figure i'll at least get all the parts that have been suggested in this thread and do one thing at a time and see if I can figure this out with everyones help.
OK guys, you better write this date in history down - Barry's going to start working on his own car...........

 

[JL66REDCPE]

Barry -- just by chance did this idle problem begin just after you filled the car with gas. The idle problem could come from various areas and cause the timing problem. For instance, water or dirt in the in the gas could drop the idle speed thus retarding the timing because the vacuum can was not getting enough vacuum at idle. This might be cleared up by simply adding some dry gas. It could be that there is a leak at the carburator base giving the rough idle and lower vacuum. Is the pcv valve working ok. Did a spark plug wire come off and the engine is not running on all cylinders ?? All of the above are relatively easy checks that you can do. I am leaving for a business trip around noon -- good luck. Maybe you are best just taking it back to your mechanic and explaining to him about the symtoms. It is difficult to trouble shoot a problem like this without being at the car. As I remember, the dwell should be between 28-32.

 

[ctjackster]

as for the t-stat gasket, I use the felpro version with the built in sealing ring. (Part No. escapes me at present, but Subfixer can vouch for it too, and JohnZ can rattle the pn off the top of his head I am sure).

If not using that, you are going to want to pick up a tube of permatex ultra copper while at the parts store. Perhaps it is just my luck, but I have often found that getting a good, no-weep seal between the t-stat housing and the intake manifold is only possible with a little bead of permatex (their ultra copper is the one I use for this, others might suggest the blue). Looks like this:

 

[ctjackster]

As for a timing light, get a "dial back" timing light - Actron makes one that is more than sufficient, Jegs has it (885-CP7519) for $62.99

 

[BarryK]

John
I've filled the car recently don't not sure if it deveolped immediatelly afterward or came on more gradually. The idle issue started during my last drive of the car yesterday.

ok..... just checked a few things out quickly.
First, yet ANOTHER issue I noticed was that the choke is no longer coming on when I first start the car cold when it ALWAYS did before.
I was able (barely) to keep the car idling long enough without stalling to check the vacuum can. With the car idling, I than pulled the hose off the can and plugged it with my finger but NO change in the idle characteristics of the car with the hose connected or disconnected from the vacuum can. Bad vacuum can than??

without pulling the shields off I can't see if a plug wire has come off a sparkplug but will pull them and check.

The PCV valve is fine - I had him check to make sure it wasn't clogged or anything while it was in the shop last week.

I think you are right and was thinking about it while I was out running errands regarding returning the car to the shop. I'm going to give him a call and tell him what's happening with the car and see what he says.

I haven't had a chance yet to check the dwell

 

[BarryK]

as for the t-stat gasket, I use the felpro version with the built in sealing ring. (Part No. escapes me at present, but Subfixer can vouch for it too, and JohnZ can rattle the pn off the top of his head I am sure).

If not using that, you are going to want to pick up a tube of permatex ultra copper while at the parts store. Perhaps it is just my luck, but I have often found that getting a good, no-weep seal between the t-stat housing and the intake manifold is only possible with a little bead of permatex (their ultra copper is the one I use for this, others might suggest the blue). Looks like this:

looks like it's another trip to the parts store than....... the gaskets they had were just simple cardboard type ones so I guess I'll need to go back and get some permatex.


only approx. $62.00 for a dial back timing light? I'll look for one of those than. I figured a dial back would be more pricey, around $150.00 or so.

 

[JL66REDCPE]

Sears also has a great dial back timing light for around $69.99. I think it is actually made by Actron. FTR I have the Craftsman dial back light.

 

[BarryK]

I just called the mechanic and described the problems.
what HE is suggesting is that the engine oil dissapates about 70% of the motor's heat and that I oil I requested in the car was a poor choice (as per SWCDukes recommendations in various threads I had the mechanic put in API C1-4 15W-40 oil) and that he recommends replacing the oil with 20W50 oil to dissapate heat better.
He also suggested that the T-stat may have gone bad and be partially closed restricting flow of coolant. Another thing he wants to check out is the temp sender unit. He checked it with an IR gun while it was there last week but since the temp never rose above 200* in his shop he said it may be accurate up to a point than go crazy. ??? He mentioned that because according to him if the motor temp was really getting to almost 240 the system would probably have built up too much pressure and been puking coolant out of the expansion tank. He seems to think the timing is still correct because the car is still running strong (except for idle).
He also says the idle may be down because if the motor is really getting that hot than the fuel may be vaporizing partially before it gets into the carb???? I know that wasn't exactly how he said it co could be a bit wrong on that one.

 

[ctjackster]

Sears also has a great dial back timing light for around $69.99. I think it is actually made by Actron. FTR I have the Craftsman dial back light.

Well, I think the one I have (Craftsman version too) is made by Actron. But the two products currently look a little different. Either one is a good choice

here is the ACTRON - with the ACTRON logo

and here is the Craftsman:

 

[ctjackster]

"With the car idling, I than pulled the hose off the can and plugged it with my finger but NO change in the idle characteristics of the car with the hose connected or disconnected from the vacuum can. "


something is wrong Barry, that's a good quick check, and in a properly functioning system, pulling the hose off of the vacuum can while the car is idling should produce a noticeable drop in the idle. That might be the source of your issue, if the vac can is not functioning right. Another possibility is that the hose is cracked or not hooked up to the carb. This would all (essentially a disconnected Vac can) explain why the car is now idling at 650

 

[BarryK]

"With the car idling, I than pulled the hose off the can and plugged it with my finger but NO change in the idle characteristics of the car with the hose connected or disconnected from the vacuum can. "


something is wrong Barry, that's a good quick check, and in a properly functioning system, pulling the hose off of the vacuum can while the car is idling should produce a noticeable drop in the idle. That might be the source of your issue, if the vac can is not functioning right. Another possibility is that the hose is cracked or not hooked up to the carb. This would all (essentially a disconnected Vac can) explain why the car is now idling at 650

after reading this I went out and checked the hose to the can. The hose is only about 4-5 inches long than connects to a hard line that goes to the carb. The rubber hose looked fine and I see no cracks. As you said, I would have expected SOME kind of difference in the motor running when I diconnected it but there was nothing at all changed - not when I pulled the hose off the can and not if I lifted my finger on or off the end of the hose.
:confused

Besides, as you know, at approx 650rpm idle it's lucky the motor was not stalling out to begin with. If I pulled the hose off the can and the rpm's dropped the motor should have died on me completely because it's not going to handle ANY lower idling at all

 

[Subfixer]

Barry, Where's this mechanic pulling those suggestions from, his a$$? That entire explaination is about the biggest load of cr@p I've heard in a long time.

Jeez, I wish I lived closer so to give you a hand.

Really, it's got to be something simple. There's not that much to these cars for it to be that complicated, although I feel your pain at being a little inexperienced.